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 Replies: 78 / Views: 9,336 |
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Valued Member
Canada
220 Posts |
It's a piece struck for use in jewellery, and using a date/type combination that never existed would help to circumvent accusations of counterfeiting. So call it a jewellery piece, fantasy piece, whatever. At least it seems like it's real gold, that's something to be happy with...
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
There is no way this could be an error. At that time the dates were punched in with a four digit logotype punch. There was no reason for an 1858 date punch to have been made before 1857. Also the 1858 punch used on this coin uses a slanted or italic 5, a font last used in 1856. So you have a date punch made in a style not used that year or in the earliest year in which the punch would have been made. The small size collar and the small size planchets stopped in 1854. So there was no way this coin could have been struck in 1858. The ONLY way this could be real is if somehow someone made the wrong date punch four or five years early, (Not likely because normally only one date model would be made in a large size and then reproduced in each size needed. You would be hardly likely to miss the fact that the date you are modeling won't be on the calendar yet for several years.) used it to make a reverse die, polished it to within an inch of its life removing many details in the process, and then struck, apparently, one coin. It would be interesting to see how the collar compares to other known genuine type I gold dollars.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5837 Posts |
The 3 pictures comparison just demonstrate the 1858 is not mint made, the font on the number 1 and 5 is of totally different type style, also the A in DollAr don't match. I worked in printing industry for many years and have look at thousand of font styles and families.
I believe like other have pointed out that your piece is either a jewelry piece, or a counterfeit and possibly a fantasy piece.
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New Member
 Portugal
47 Posts |
is strange that a guy that would make a counterfeit or a jewelry piece would worrie about his weight, I went today to an shop they measure the weight with a specific computer for that and it gave me the right weith for his type. I know that is difficult to accept a new thing and all things tells that this is impossible, but I dont see like that, anything is possible, and this coin tells me that is true, even if he is or not made on that year, is strange that it got the same weight, diameter, composition, as the type one liberty head ones. I am not judging your guys opinion I just expressing what I feel, and think.
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New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
i know that history fact says that this coin could be possible or impossible to exist, nut if you think about it how impossble is it to a worker make a single error and put 2x (8) in a hallmark? And if you check the history of this coin you will see that didnt was the money house intention to stop the production of it so, the year 1854 wasnt the final year, it just stoped because people were contesting about it´s size (too small), like I said before history can say that this is impossible but people is who dictates history. I dont want that you guys think I want that everyone says that this coin is true or genuine, but I want that you guys dont be so much focus in things that you dont have a confirmation, is just words, nothing else.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5837 Posts |
If you believe this is the real deal and no possible explanation can be achieve through this forum, your next best bet is to submit it to any of the 3 large third party grading company. In such a way you will get your confirmation and not just words. Please post result if you decide to go that route.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
chicco....you are making a understandable error in logic to justify your "coin"... let me explain...
if it is made of the same material as a coin and the same diameter...it will have the same weight
if it has the same weight and diameter....it will be made of the same material
if it is made of the same material and has the same weight....it will have the same dimensions
any two known qualities will by default cause the third to be correct.
One thing I would be VERY curious to see...and would very likely determine with absolute certainty if this was a jewelry piece is to take a pic of it in a mirror so we can see the obverse(front) and reverse (back) of the coin at the same time....that way we can see if it was made in coin or medal rotation. if a jewelry piece I would assume they would have made it in medal rotation so it would read right regardless of which side faced forward....but just a hunch.
Chicco...any chance you can take us one more image of it in a mirror so we can see the front and back in the same picture? Litterally hold in near a mirror so we can see the front and then the rear in the reflection in the mirror so one picture lets us see the front and the back at the same time.
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Valued Member
Austria
194 Posts |
@unholly roler:
thats correct, but:
you say: if it has the same weight and diameter....it will be made of the same material
a counterfeit half eagle or eagle from the time between 1840 - 1880 can also have the same measures, but must nt be made of gold!
there are also very good contemporary counterfeits, struck in platinum.
by the way: I didn´t heard from platinum-based 1 dollar coins from this period.
i think this would be a jewellery piece. maybe the 8 was a 6 before being modified?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1227 Posts |
Just a thought I haven't seen brought up:
Is it possible that this is a genuine coin from 1854 or earlier, but that it was restamped outside the Mint to make a fantasy coin with a later date? Gold is soft enough that you can leave dents in it when you bite it--it seems to me that a restamp might not show any trace of the old design.
I don't collect gold (can't afford it) but would like to advance the opinion that before anyone mentioned the conflicting typefaces, the OP's set of comparison pictures told me the font is wrong for a true coin of that year. Just my font-educated, gold-uneducated opinion.
OP: I understand your not wanting to let go of the idea that this is an error. But, please consider: many knowledgeable people have given you their combined understanding, which amounts to "this being an error coin is impossible, and the lengths someone would have to go to for it to be an error coin are beyond belief. It's a counterfeit or fantasy piece." Why ask for a verdict if you refuse to accept it? I know it sucks, but you still have a coin worth a premium due to the gold and possibly the interesting story behind it. Take it for what it is, and with luck you'll find a real error in the future.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
Platinrubel...
I should have made note that we are keeping the thickness consistent.
To make the example simple.....
A one ounce troy cube of .9999 fine gold will have a very specific size (volume) and unless you come up with a very exotic alloy that is then plated in .9999 gold...it will not be exactly the same size and appearance. Densities are a very good "fingerprint" that lends evidence to what something is made from. It might be very close of made of another material...but not exact. The term is known as specific gravity when made in regards to something when compared to water. If you took an exact cube of water 1cm on a side it would weigh exactly 1 gram (at STP which is beyond this discussion). This is the standard all others are measured by. For the coin we are referencing we are making an assumption....that the composition is indeed coin grade gold. That being accepted....all the volumetric and weight data can be used as definitive diagnostics.
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New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
Nice effort chicco....need to get the coin closer to the mirror so the image of the coin in the mirror is in focus as well...great effort though!
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New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
i got other pictures I am just uploading just a second, this is to see the border of the coin, will upload other picture
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New Member
Portugal
47 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
MUCH BETTER! surprised to see coin orientation! I would have bet money on it being medal orientation!
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Replies: 78 / Views: 9,336 |
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Posted 10/05/2012 12:30 pm
