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8 Reales From 1779 | Mexico

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Author Previous TopicReplies: 14 / Views: 3,759Next Topic  
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harthag's Avatar
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2012  08:48 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I generally collect modern US coins so I have very little experience with Spanish colonial coins. I recently acquired an 8 Reales coin dated 1779 (sorry, I still don't have a way to post photos) and I was wondering how to identify it more completely.

Suggestions?

What should I look for?

Identified - moved to World Coins forum - Sap
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amida17's Avatar
United States
4897 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2012  08:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here is a start. Find the mm and assayer....http://scoan.oldnote.org/types.html .
Edited by amida17
12/28/2012 08:57 am
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harthag's Avatar
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49 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2012  10:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Mint Mark is that "M" with the little circle above it, just like the picture on that site you posted, but the assayer is F F, instead of the F M in that pic. So does that mean Mexico mint?
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amida17's Avatar
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4897 Posts
 Posted 12/28/2012  7:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
o over M is Mexico city.
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United States
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 Posted 12/29/2012  02:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roderick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your 8 Reales coin dated 1779 should bear the bust of King Carlos III on the obverse and on the reverse the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Spain surrounded by the inscription HISPAN. ET IND. (for Spain and the Indes), the abbreviation of the denomination, in your case 8R, the mark small o over large M of the Spanish Colonial mint at Mexico City as well as the initials F F for the assayers at the time: Francisco Antonio de la Pena & Francisco Arance y Cobos. The Spanish appointed two assayers at a time to supervise the quality of the silver and gold coinage at every mint and despite this precaution there were discrepancies in the percentage of silver in the alloy from time to time at the colonial mints of Spanish America.

Roderick
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harthag's Avatar
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 Posted 12/30/2012  11:56 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, there is a bust on the obverse, I'm guessing the lettering "CAROLUS" is a spelling variation of "Carlos", right? The roman numeral III next to it would make it Carlos the third.

Also on the obverse is the lettering "DEI GRATIA", what is that referring to?

All the lettering you mentioned for the reverse is there plus the word "REX".

So this is a spanish colonial 8 Reales minted in Mexico City under the supervision of Francisco and Francisco(I don't know why that's so funny to me). Any further identification that I need to find out about it?
New Member
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 Posted 12/30/2012  12:15 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roderick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am glad that you found my information of some use.

DEI GRATIA is a commonly used Latin phrase in the titles of monarch meaning BY THE GRACE OF GOD. REX is Latin meaning KING. Monarch found out long ago, that being chosen by God enhances their mystique and above all is very useful in controlling the populace.

Roderick
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Namachieli's Avatar
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2120 Posts
 Posted 01/02/2013  5:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Namachieli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Counterfeits are prevalent in the era, though with out photos we cant help identify.

Simple tests are weight, appearance (color), natural wear patterns, consistent edge, and Font.

Find a genuine example online of your coin and verify its details against yours.
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harthag's Avatar
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2013  9:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I finally found a way to take some pics

but I'm not very good at it yet



8-Reales-From-1779-|-Mexico



8-Reales-From-1779-|-Mexico
Edited by harthag
01/08/2013 9:25 pm
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harthag's Avatar
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 01/08/2013  9:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I've seen counterstamps mentioned on some other threads here, but the marks on this coin seem much smaller than the counterstamps I've seen on other coins in other threads.

Are these just really small counterstamps or something else?

I was also wondering how to grade this coin (I know this is not the grading section of the forum so if I just need to start a new thread there, let me know) (I edited out what the dealer wrote as the grade to avoid biasing the answers from you folks here)
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United States
34 Posts
 Posted 01/09/2013  8:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roderick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The older Chinese chop marks from the 18th century are normally very much smaller than those used in the mid 19th century to the early 20th century. While the chop marks appear to be correct, I have read of reportedly counterfeit Chinese 8 Reales coins punched with 18th century style chop marks in order to throw off the wary buyer.

I should mention that just because a coin has chop marks does not mean that it was actually in China. Chinese merchants could be found all over what is presently Indonesia, the Philippines, Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand, Burma, Laos, Malaysia and others. They chopped the Spanish, Mexican, Peruvian, Bolivian and American coins all through the 19th century and in the case of Spanish Colonial coins for a few centuries before.
Edited by Roderick
01/09/2013 9:07 pm
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harthag's Avatar
United States
49 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2013  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add harthag to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Since you mentioned "chop marks" I've started trying to research those, but haven't been able to find much info.

Anyone know some good sources for info on chop marks?

Anyone know how they would affect the value or grade of this coin(or of coins in general)?
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morgandude's Avatar
United States
380 Posts
 Posted 01/10/2013  3:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add morgandude to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Check out Trade dollars to learn about counter-stamps. (do a Google search of " Trade dollar counter-stamp".
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United States
34 Posts
 Posted 01/11/2013  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roderick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am not certain that the marks on US Trade dollars will correspond to those of a century earlier. After the interest in chopmarks was brought up in the discussion, I located a book on my shelves titled "Chopmarks" by F.M. Rose which was published in 1987. I will look through it and try to identify a mark or possibly some marks on your 8 reales coin.

You could try posting the question on this coin forum http://foromaravedis.forosgratis.info/forum and see if you receive a satisfactory response.

There is also an excellent website available with considerable information regarding chopmarks on the Spanish Colonial coinage of the Philippine Islands. Here is the link http://www.chopmarks.com/
Edited by Roderick
01/11/2013 11:36 pm
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 Posted 01/12/2013  10:44 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Roderick to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The chopmark just to the left of the capital of the Pillar of Hercules on the right is the character 'liang' which according to F.M. Rose is an alternate word for tael which was a standard Chinese weight for silver. By standard, I mean that it was the principle designation for silver in the amount of just over one troy ounce. Over the centuries and with locally accepted variations a tael could vary in weight from 33.9g to 40g.
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