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1986 LMC ~ S/S/S Or MD {numerous Photos}

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Broken-Coin's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2013  11:55 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers


Last night I posted a thread on finding a 1986-s/s/s cent in my proof Set.

Since the retail value of this set is valued less then the issue price, and this set is starting to haze, I decided to open the set to photograph.

The reverse side shows thin letters on the top of "TE" in "UNITED" and "ER" in "AMERICA".

The mint mark sure looks like it was re-punched, and the reply from last nights thread said this would be impossible and could be Machine Doubling.

Since I know more about errors then I will ever know about die varieties, I'll let others here give their opinion here.

Note; the "s" serif is split and not shelf like as one would expect on Machine Doubling.



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}



1986-LMC-~-S/S/S-Or-MD-{numerous-Photos}
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Jayman931's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2013  4:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Jayman931 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Hmmm...Looks like in might an S/S with split plating....or it could just be split plating...
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 Posted 03/28/2013  4:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Machine Doubling with an over abraided die.
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ThisIsFun's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2013  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ThisIsFun to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very interesting. Sure looks like an RPM to me but I'm often wrong.
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reupman's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2013  5:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add reupman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
looks really neat! I think it needs a closer look in hand by a third party
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biokemist6's Avatar
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 Posted 03/28/2013  5:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As I stated in your other post, it is impossible for a proof 1986 to have an RPM because the mintmark was added to the proof master die in 1985, five years before it was added to the business strike master die. There is alot of glare in the photo so it is difficult to see any fine detail but it appears to be split plating doubling.
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 Posted 03/28/2013  6:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
As I stated in your other post, it is impossible for a proof 1986 to have an RPM because the mintmark was added to the proof master die in 1985, five years before it was added to the business strike master die.


And unfortunately I have found on CCF that when a very reputable member makes statements of facts like this one, it is either ignored or argued against. If other members looked for opportunities to further their education in varieties, there are plenty on here that are willing to help.
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Broken-Coin's Avatar
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 Posted 03/29/2013  10:05 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
And unfortunately I have found on CCF that when a very reputable member makes statements of facts like this one, it is either ignored or argued against. If other members looked for opportunities to further their education in varieties, there are plenty on here that are willing to help.



I have also found this a number of times since joining CCF, and learned (the hard way) to just sit back and remain quiet.
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 Posted 03/29/2013  11:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So Broken Coin, how many decades have you spent collecting, studying, and learning all about RPMs?
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 Posted 03/29/2013  3:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a direct quote from John Wexler's website. He is arguably the top authority of RPMs in the world.

"The RPM and OMM varieties are two die variety types that the Mint has successfully eliminated from modern day coinage. The first changes to the procedure of applying the mint marks to coinage came in the mid-1980s when the mint mark started to appear to the original model design for commemorative coins and regular proof coins. In 1990 and 1991 the Mint began applying the mint mark for circulating coins to the master die. After 1994 the mint mark was applied directly to the original model for all U.S. coins thus ending the RPM and OMM era."

But hey, don't take his word. He is only an expert.
Edited by seal006
03/30/2013 2:09 pm
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Broken-Coin's Avatar
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 Posted 03/30/2013  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
There is alot of glare in the photo so it is difficult to see any fine detail but it appears to be split plating doubling.


I do need quite a bit of light when zooming in.

I would think a "split plating doubling" would show some zinc, then again, what do I know.



Quote:
So Broken Coin, how many decades have you spent collecting, studying, and learning all about RPMs?


Seal006 ~ You may be pleased to know I started with the blue Whitman Cent folders some 50 years ago (when finding and spending IHC'c and Liberty Nickles was still popular), and as for RPMs and other die varieties, they have never done anything for me (lack of excitement) and this is why I collect errors and not die varieties (unless the variety is also a error [like my 1998 Wide AM ~ 40% double struck Lincoln & Two 2000 Wide AM 10% off centers]).




Quote:
This is a direct quote from John Wexler's website. He is arguably the top authority of RPMs in the world.


In the past I have had email contact with John Wexler.
For some unknown reason his email address is not in my address book, and I just sent him a message on his facebook page mentioning this thread, along with two coin photos requesting he take a look, and letting him know I can email him high resolution photos if requested.

In closing;

For others that may have missed my thread on varieties shortly after I joined CCF, I do not really collect die varieties and very rarely have I purchased any.

I mentioned this in a thread I posted showing some harsh cleaning I had done on a 1960d large/small date with a d/d mintmark variety. This Cent was garbage prior to cleaning it and only did I know it was the d/d variety after cleaning it.

This did raise eyebrows with the variety collectors here on CCF and thought I was going to get tarred and feathered.

After selling off my Currency Collection when my numismatic interest turned to Errors, I found excitement in multi-struck coins, and the "rush" I would get in the joy of the hunt when a unique error like my avatar coin enters the market, and others don't realize just how rare it is. If anyone has trouble viewing it, it is a 2003d quadstruck that was offered on ebay in 2003, advertised as a triple strike, and some of my bidding competitors were well known error experts, like Fred Weinberg, Rich S. to name a few.
Nine+ years later I have yet to view any 2003d double or triple struck Cent, let alone a quadstruck.

I think most of us back then didn't realize just how rare multi-strike error coins would become.

I posted this thread to share with others on my recent find, and really do not care if it's a genuine die variety, Machine Doubling, or whatever.

I like the way it looks, plus it also gives me some enjoyment on releasing the proof nickel, dime & quarter in circulation (I do dab some fireplace ashes on them to reduce the shine and keep them in circulation longer).

And since I don't collect a number of die varieties, in the past I have given away a few of my CCF posted varieties to other members with no cost to the CCF member other than a S.A.S.E..

In the next week or so I will post another coin that will be a give-away for someone that likes to examine coins under a microscope.





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 Posted 03/30/2013  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I responded the way I did because you question a fact, one that stated it was impossible to be a RPM. You know a lot about errors, I will give you that. Some of theerror coins you have posted are amazing. I do not comment or question about error coins because I do not know or care to know about them. I am a Lincoln variety guy. I will comment and share on those.
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 Posted 04/01/2013  12:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I would think a "split plating doubling" would show some zinc

Obviously you have the coin in hand and I do not but it looks to me like the zinc is exposed on the mintmark in a southeast direction.
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John1's Avatar
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 Posted 04/01/2013  6:36 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there a way to find out for sure when the mint stopped hand punching proof dies? The mid 1980's is a little vague.
John1
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 Posted 04/01/2013  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add seal006 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I am thinking it was 1885. I cannot find the documentation to prove that for sure. It seems I read somewhere that 1984 was the last year for proofs and 1989 was the last year for business strikes. Still looking for that info though. I do know the last RPM that I have seen on a proof was 1984.
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biokemist6's Avatar
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 Posted 04/02/2013  01:13 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
John- the last year for proof dies was 1984
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