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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,269 |
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Valued Member
United States
291 Posts |
Why is there a price difference between some NGC and PCGS slabbed coins of the same grade? I was looking at Two Cent Pieces on ebay and there is a sizable difference in price (2x) between a MS-65 graded by PCGS and a MS-65 graded by NGC. I've run this question by shop owners that I trust, and they tell me there is no difference between a MS-65 in one versus the other, except that some buyers how to have the PCGS piece of plastic. Basically, they say buy the coin, not the plastic. However, if their assessment is correct, then why not just buy all the good looking MS-65 NGC graded Two Cent Pieces on ebay, pay the crossover fee to PCGS and sell them for a $400 profit per coin? What am I missing?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1391 Posts |
There are some people who do exactly what you are saying. Some people play the crack out game which is similar but they are try to get the next grade up with coins that are really close.
PCGS seems to be the one that people want so people take advantage of it. Of course things aren't always clear cut easy because of various factors. Older slabs may have been graded harder. Some slabs maybe over graded. You may send in a coin and it comes back undergraded, etc.
Now you should be buying the coin and not the holder, of course.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
Rightly or wrongly,mostly wrongly, some people trust that PCGS is a more accurate grade than other slabs. And many people are willing to pay more for that belief.
And because of that , for now, it is something to take into consideration when buying a slabbed coin. Personally, my choice is always a PCGS slab. Because I believe that NGC grades inaccurately ? No, but I believe that other people think that and when I go to resell a coin, I count on other people thinking that.
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
2133 Posts |
Are they both truly MS65, though ?
Can you be sure that a coin graded by NGC as MS65 will be graded by PCGS as MS65 ?
If you can trust both gradings, why pay a crossover fee at all, just liberate it from its plastic and sell it unslabbed ?
I don't like to buy slabbed coins; though I can see the point for rare and very highly priced coins.
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Most coins have a lower top population for PCGS than NGC. Like was mentioned the reputation is that PCGS is more conservative with the grades and more accurate which gives them a higher premium. If a coins graded accurately it could be equal between the two or either one could have more eye appeal than the other. Like was also mentioned when you go to resell its always nice to get the higher PCGS price. The reason you cant just buy NGC coins and cross them over and make money on that is because they dont all cross. If it was that easy everyone would do it. Between 30-40% of total cross overs to PCGS actually cross over and the rest are rejected. The ones with the most to gain are the expensive low population high grade coins which are also the ones that PCGS is the most hesitant to cross over. PCGS gets protective of their population numbers for the coins that have a huge jump in price once their initial population has been set and probably undergrades some coins as a result which isn't necessarily a good thing, but its not necessarily a bad thing either and does protect the premiums on their coins. It kind of is what it is but they get more conservative with grading for the top grades as time goes on which also applies to their modern 70s. All that said just because the label says something does mean its going to look great. Theres plenty of MS64s that look better than 66s and if you have a particular grade in mind you should look for coins that live up to the labels expectations Quote:
Can you be sure that a coin graded by NGC as MS65 will be graded by PCGS as MS65 ? You cant ever be 100 percent sure but if you get a coin thats strong for its grade like one that would get a CAC sticker it will more than likely cross.
Edited by basebal21 04/03/2013 6:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
Quote: Are they both truly MS65, though ? Basically , they are what it says they are. It is not like people closely examine coins in NGC or PCGS slabs, or ANACS or ICG slabs for that matter. If NGC says it is an MS65, it will sell as an MS65. If you crack it, all bets are off. Then, it is only an MS65 if the buyer or person looking at it says so.
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Valued Member
United States
329 Posts |
The perception that PCGS is better whether deserved or not presents an opportunity to pick up nice coins in other slabs.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
627 Posts |
Quote: basebal21 said...
Most coins have a lower top population for PCGS than NGC. Like was mentioned the reputation is that PCGS is more conservative with the grades and more accurate which gives them a higher premium. If a coins graded accurately it could be equal between the two or either one could have more eye appeal than the other. Like was also mentioned when you go to resell its always nice to get the higher PCGS price.
The reason you cant just buy NGC coins and cross them over and make money on that is because they dont all cross. If it was that easy everyone would do it. Between 30-40% of total cross overs to PCGS actually cross over and the rest are rejected. The ones with the most to gain are the expensive low population high grade coins which are also the ones that PCGS is the most hesitant to cross over.
PCGS gets protective of their population numbers for the coins that have a huge jump in price once their initial population has been set and probably undergrades some coins as a result which isn't necessarily a good thing, but its not necessarily a bad thing either and does protect the premiums on their coins. It kind of is what it is but they get more conservative with grading for the top grades as time goes on which also applies to their modern 70s.
All that said just because the label says something does mean its going to look great. Theres plenty of MS64s that look better than 66s and if you have a particular grade in mind you should look for coins that live up to the labels expectations I assume all of your comments are pointed at USA coins graded by PCGS. NGC is far and away the more conservative and consistent grader of non-USA world coins. Regarding "accuracy" for PCGS, I'm not sure what you think of when you think of "accuracy". Back in 2003 or 2004 an article was published where coins were cracked out and sent in to grading companies multiple times (same coin), and across different grading companies. If by accuracy you mean "consistency", then PCGS was in that study the lowest ranked of all TPGs...even lower than SEGS and PCI. But, PCGS was noted in that study to be about 1 or 0.5 technical grades on average below NGC and several others. This topic has been discussed dozens of times. The argument about % of cross-over from NGC --> PCGS goes both ways. There are hundreds of thousands of coins in PCGS holders that would not likely cross over to NGC at the same grade. Just as a simple example, the FBL designation on Franklin halves, and the FS designation on Jeffersion nickels from PCGS are meangingless to NGC graders. The standards are different, and a very small proportion of those coins would make it into similar NGC holders. Ask a few world coin collectors about their "success" in crossing PCGS coins over to NGC, and you'll see that the problem is endemic -- PCGS is known for overgrading world coins. Many won't even cross a two grades below their PCGS grade. I have hundreds of coins in both holders. I don't really care what plastic the coin is in as the coin should speak for itself, regardless of your flavor of TPG Kool-aid. I think PCGS slabs look cheap, feel cheap, and are poorly designed to aesthetically display coins. But, that's just personal preference for the much sturdier, more professional looking NGC tomb. I have never played the "cross-over" game and never will. And, when making blanket statments like "PCGS coins sell for more than NGC coins" you have to actually look at the coins. There are a lot of dogs in PCGS plastic, and there are a lot of dogs in NGC plastic. If you are looking at an auction results for a dog NGC coin vs. a PQ PCGS coin, of course the prices differ. I can probably find another NGC coin that's nice that sold for more than the PCGS coin though also. This is a never ending circuitous argument that in the scheme of things doesn't really matter for us collectors -- it mostly matters for "flippers" and "dealers".
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
Quote:
I assume all of your comments are pointed at USA coins graded by PCGS. NGC is far and away the more conservative and consistent grader of non-USA world coins.
Definitely for USA coins and more specifically for modern coins. PCGS is new to the world coin aspect so the jury is still out on how they will be on those. Quote: Back in 2003 or 2004 an article was published where coins were cracked out and sent in to grading companies multiple times (same coin), and across different grading companies. That is a decade ago and not really relevant imo. Regardless of time frame though you're also talking about a hand full of coins out of millions graded. They're some dogs in their holders, that's true for every company they're human and humans aren't perfect. I doubt anyone would ever be willing to spend the money to actually get a statistically significant sample size for that. That said PCGS generally is more conservative with their top grades for a coin. Whether NGC over-grades those or PCGS under-grades them is open for debate, the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle. Quote: The argument about % of cross-over from NGC --> PCGS goes both ways. I never said it didn't. If either crossed 100 percent of coins that would be admitting the other is better. Quote: I think PCGS slabs look cheap, feel cheap, and are poorly designed to aesthetically display coins. Youre entitled to your opinion I hate NGC slabs and the look of the white. The clear looks much better in my opinion especially for silver. I don't see how you can say one is more professional than the other they're both sturdy and well made which is what you want, the only one I would question the quality of the holder on is ANACS who are much easier to crack open. All my coins are PCGS partly because I do like their holders better so I find coins that match what I'm looking for. It makes it a little harder but I like the uniform look better as well, call it ocd or whatever but from what I've seen I find myself saying "how did that coin get that grade" less with PCGS than NGC. In fairness I don't know what they looked like when they were graded and maybe they were stored poorly of the NGC slab is more susceptible to the environment. That is how I want to do it though if someone else wants to use all three or NGC or ANACS for that matter by all means go ahead you're fine with any of the big three. Quote: And, when making blanket statments like "PCGS coins sell for more than NGC coins" you have to actually look at the coins. I did mention that on any two given coins either can be better than the other. There are always exceptions to every rule but if you had to make a blanket general statement PCGS coins do consistently sell for more than their NGC counter parts just like both sell for more than ANACS. It kind of is what it is. Like I mentioned I wont dissuade someone from using NGC or ANACS if that's what they like but if someone asks I will mention that PCGS coins do have a premium because the market reflects that right now. Could that change sure, NGC coins could take over the top stop in the future. I don't personally see anyone taking either or those two out unless they implode on their own with their market shares and new collectors coming about in the age of slabs. But I do believe that if someone asks they should be given that information and make their own decisions off of it. Collector or not resale is part of the equation whether it be once were gone to be sold as an inheritance, or if you fall on hard times and don't have a choice. But I wont ever argue that someone should buy the coins they like that they can afford.
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Valued Member
United States
329 Posts |
I liked the SEGS holders, the grading not so much.
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Valued Member
United States
329 Posts |
PCGS and NGC grading of world coins approaches an atrocity. They are like Fitch and Moodys as they have to serve both dealer and buyer too, mostly dealer.
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Valued Member
United States
329 Posts |
I still have a Morgan that was graded by ANACS before they used slabs. You got a flip and a certificate and they graded both sides.
Edited by wjl 04/13/2013 07:48 am
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Valued Member
United States
329 Posts |
"If you can trust both gradings, why pay a crossover fee at all, just liberate it from its plastic and sell it unslabbed"
You can't trust any grading as it expands to accomodate demand. Many coins I see in 65 slabs are far too imperfect to have been considered the same back when I first started collecting. This is particularly true of Morgans.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,269 |
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