Ragusa Tollero / Taler 1757 Fake? - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 9 / Views: 4,973
Draepnir New Member Sweden 10 Posts	Posted 04/05/2013 12:34 pm I bought a few coins recently and this came along with it. After some research I found out that it's a Ragusa Tollero / Taler from 1757 It seems to have been used as a necklace and then repaired with an unknown metal. The weight of my particular coin is 29gram (can't be more specific because I only have a kitchen scale atm) The weight would probably be off due to the repair of the coin. All the measurements are correct 41mm dia and 2mm thick and it responds well to a diamagnetic test. Now to my dilemma, in the repaired area and on the cheek of the portrait I see the slightest signs of copper. Unfortunately the camera does not capture it correctly, it's a little more pronounced in real life. Now it could just be me being overly picky, but I want to see if someone might have heard of fakes of this coin. Or if there's another explanation. A few notes on the coin, so that hopefully it becomes searchable and help others. RAGUSA: DALMATIA 1757, TALLERO eller TALER, OBVERSE: PORTRAIT OF RECTOR REIP RHACVSIN, DRAPED BUST FACING LEFT, OBVERSE LEGEND: RHACVSIN RECTOR.REI REVERSE: CROWNED COAT-OF-ARMS: REVERSE LEGEND: DVCAT ET SEM REIP RAC 1757, Report this Post to the Staff

austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 04/05/2013 3:10 pm I am not overly familiar with this coin. A couple of years ago I subjected a silver coin to the attentions of a blow torch ( I wanted to see how a coin reacts to heating) with the application of direct flame a strong copper tinge developed on the surface of the coin when cooled. I assumed it was copper atoms in the alloy migrating to the surface of the coin. The copper toning especially around the filled hole on your coin looks very like the effect I created with a blow torch. I have a Maria Theresa thaler that was made into jewelery in the Sudan and the Black smith( No traditional silver smith in that region would be so clumsy as the person who made this piece was) had clearly over heated the coin while mounting it.....it looks like a copper coin with small patches of silver on the surface! Report this Post to the Staff
Draepnir New Member Sweden 10 Posts	Posted 04/05/2013 3:52 pm So you think it's a fake copper coin with a layer of silver on top? Or did you mean a silver coin with copper spots. Good to know your results on the blow torch test though, I was not aware of that. Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 04/05/2013 5:03 pm I am not saying the coin is a fake I am saying a genuine coin having been heated might well show the copper toning your coin shows. Report this Post to the Staff
Draepnir New Member Sweden 10 Posts	Posted 04/05/2013 7:33 pm Many thanks for clearing that up for me :) Everything else about the coin feels authentic so this seems plausible. Report this Post to the Staff
wjl Valued Member United States 329 Posts	Posted 04/06/2013 11:46 am So many of these I've seen have adjustment marks. Report this Post to the Staff
Gwyde Pillar of the Community Belgium 506 Posts	Posted 04/11/2013 2:57 pm You may find plenty of thalers having been used as a pendant. Often they're decently mounted with only some possible rim damage when removed. Sometimes an eye is soldered on the edge. Your coin indeed is an example of the worst choice possible. If it were not a genuine thaler, no one would care to fix it, I guess. Report this Post to the Staff
Draepnir New Member Sweden 10 Posts	Posted 04/12/2013 09:16 am I got a tip to do the "ping/ring" test. It sounds very little like my other silver coins. A short medium pitch tone, hard to describe. Whilst my other silvercoins from the 1900th have a long high pitch sound. Despite this it has the same magnetic properties as my other silvercoins. A neodymium magnet slides down at the same speed when the coin is held in a 45-degree angle. Report this Post to the Staff
wonghinghi Pillar of the Community Hong Kong 1270 Posts	Posted 10/29/2014 05:39 am Quote: I got a tip to do the "ping/ring" test. It sounds very little like my other silver coins. A short medium pitch tone, hard to describe. Whilst my other silvervcoins from the 1900th have a long high pitch sound. Draepnir, I would say your coin is genuine but it is debased. I did a small research to two Croatia Ragusa talers and found both are debased also. Like you, I do the ring test on both coins and they ring a bit different from those coins with 90% silver. They slide down a bit quicker than a normal thaler. Both account the silver content of both is less than 90%. The result of specific gravity further proves both coins are debased. 27.55 gr. 40.5-40.8 mm, S.G.9.592 (=43.78%), plain edge 28.85 gr. 41.4-41.7 mm, S.G.9.813 (=56.9% Ag), flora edge As both coins were typical Trade dollars of the Mediterranean Sea and East Europe, coins with lower silver might help to circulate by the principle of 'the bad coin expels the good coins". This is just my guess at all. Henry Report this Post to the Staff
Medieval Pillar of the Community 3772 Posts	Posted 10/29/2014 06:22 am Quote: Now it could just be me being overly picky, but I want to see if someone might have heard of fakes of this coin. The are forgeries (contemporary and modern) of many larger silver coins. If the coin is of debased silver as 'wonghinghi' speculated, then it could well be a contemporary forgery potentially even illegal strike by mint officials. Quote: You may find plenty of thalers having been used as a pendant. Not only Thalers, but the odd things with this piece is where the whole is. Pendant were made to show one of the two sides off in the best way. This does not apply to this coin. One potential explanation might be that someone wanted to create something like a brooch but after the first hole come out that bad gave up on the venture. Report this Post to the Staff
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