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 Replies: 22 / Views: 7,063 |
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
Hello there, I work for the company that is in fact responsible for CCGS, and I felt it would be proper to come on here and explain the situation, seeing that howardsdirect (our ebay entity) is on the "bad sellers" list  First, I do understand the frustrations with slabbed coins in general and on ebay. The concerns are valid. Howardsdirect (and, as you've probably guessed, the 'live' auction company that I'm representing here, Silvertowne Auctions LLC) is the ebay arm of Howard's Rare Coin Gallery in Leipsic, Ohio. Rick Howard (my father) is the owner. He has been a full time coin dealer since 1972. Sorry, that's the last bit "public relations" drivel that I'll put in here. In any event, here is what CCGS is (really, was, as we are phasing it out): A grading service that did, in fact, accept submissions from the general public, did have a Michigan address (Mike L. did handle the coin submissions up there). But of course the company also existed for Howard's own ebay use. I can say that we really didn't want to do this. Our attempts to sell coins raw (or even PCGS or NGC sometimes) have met with failure, despite a outstanding feedback rating and long history on ebay. From what we can tell, the ebay market has rapidly and hugely diminished, to something that provided a large part of our business to something that is barely hanging on. I'm sure there's exceptions (there always is), but ebay is more or less becoming a "last resort" instead of a premiere selling environment. For WHATEVER reason, people on ebay buy generic slabbed coins. For the life of me I don't know why. You'd think it was just "suckers" (though, as I'll explain later, we really did not run our particular operation that way: it was as honest as it could possibly be). In any case, I should also mention that we took great pains to be sure that nobody overpaid for these coins. We are not scammers. Maybe some of you have done business with Howard's; we are considered a very reputable company in the numismatic world. When we sold these coins on a "Buy It Now" basis, the price was always fair and quite low. And when we resorted to 99 cent auctions, the coins either ended up going for slightly above cost or many times below. We even offered a guy $500 bucks to NOT buy some coins he won (because the auction went so poorly!!). Finally, anyone that had any problem at all with the coins once they got them were able to return the coins for a speedy refund. We have the same 10 day policy that most of the better dealers have, but we usually honor that even if it was day 15 or day 17. So the CCGS thing came about primarily because it was demanded by one group of people we couldn't ignore: our customers. So we just did it in a way that was as ethical as possible. And again, there were many individuals who sent coins in to Michigan for grading, and were very happy with the service. Of course we told those people that they weren't getting any sort of premium on value, they were basically getting a slab that no dealer would take seriously. But they liked it anyway! We would also tell people this if they called in regarding the ebay coins. However, ebay has been so bad that even the slabs aren't selling all that great. So they are, actually, being phased out. Oh, we'll probably still have them on ebay for awhile in some form, because we have quite a bit of them left over. But as for the grading of new coins, we aren't going to be doing that. I do expect finally shut down the website soon. I do apologize for our honorable company potentially contributing to the whole slabbing problem (more from guilt by association). I'm the "young guy" in the company, and it was one of my initiatives to start looking into the online coin community. It was unpleasantly surprising to see our name in such a negative light here. Edited to remove auction links !! By Metalman Respectfully Yours, Rob Howard Howard's and Silvertowne Auctions LLC ***Edited by Forum Mom to remove link from signature*** |
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Valued Member
United States
287 Posts |
I have bought from silvertowne in the past and was quite happy with the coin. I also used to browse the Howardscoins.com ? website, but I saw the slabs on your ebay site and thought "Oh no!" Definitely ditch the slabs. Did I get the website correct? I used to enjoy the site but after getting a new 'puter I lost all my bookmarks. |
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New Member
 United States
5 Posts |
Hi Rigoletto,
Yes, we are ditching the slabs. Good riddance.
In any event, yeah, howardscoins.com was our old website, but that is changing soon. That site was created using "hired" people and was really hard to update and change... which is why I'm in the process of making a new website for us now. I'll be sure to let everyone know when/what that is.
-Rob
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
Rob, the brush you have been painted with is directly related to the large number of completely unscrupulous Ebayers doing exactly the same thing your father was doing - creating self-slabbing "services" whose ownership by the seller forms a direct conflict of interest when you play it against the supposed "clinical detachment" of the "reputable" companies like PCGS, NGC and ANACS. You'll note my use of quotes, please. I have done business with Howard's before. I will do business with them again. I've stated in the past that I don't consider their overgrading to be any worse than any other dealer - buying low and selling high grades is how this business works, and anyone who can be compared to Ernie isn't much of an overgrader anyways. But, the first thing that any numismatic newbie learns is that there are third-party graders out there whose rules require them to avoid any potential conflict of interest, any chance of personally profiting from their determination of the grade of the coin presented for grading. Knowing this, they then believe that *any* slabbing service is free of such conflict, and even if they're savvy enough to be cautious about grading, there's always the implied detachment of a slabbing service to introduce doubt of one's grading skills, and improve one's belief that the coin contained therein is somehow more valuable than a raw coin of equivalent quality. So, by definition, and regardless of your honorable intent (and I state for the record that I consider your firm to be an honorable business), CCGS is representative of a deceptive practice. I cannot overemphasize the harm you've done to your firm's reputation among more knowledgeable numismatists with CCGS, regardless of the quality of the grading. The sheer existence of a slabbing service owned by the dealer providing the inventory has cost you a large amount of business in itself, among those whose stance is unequivocally against the practice. If your name is not on the slab, you are not telling the truth. That's the bottom line. I am overjoyed to hear that you're phasing it out. I wish you'd walk away from it entirely. If you will hearken back to the days when certain reputable dealers began offering semi-sealed enclosures with both a grade and their firm's name on it, trading on their reputation as a quality dealer and capable grader, you will understand the direction that I would personally like to see you take in the future regarding slabbed coins. While I have your ear, I will mention one concern which has always been in my mind concerning your company. As I've looked at your ebay offerings (and I have looked at hundreds of your coins on ebay over the last few years), I am struck by the vast range of quality shown in the photographs of them. Some images are of such quality that I can easily determine both grade and variety by inspecting them, while others appear to have been done by someone who didn't belong behind a camera. This raises a real red flag to me, the potential buyer - knowing you're capable of such good work, why do you settle for such a poor picture of the coin in front of me? The inevitable conclusion is that there's something to hide with that specific coin, making me suspect the grade assigned and the relative deception involved. This is an issue I wish you'd address while here. Either way, I admire the forthrightness and motivation which has prompted you to post this thread here. You are obviously interested in a constructive dialogue, and we intend to provide you the opportunity to have it. This can be construed as a warning to further posters in this thread - there's a wide gap between constructive criticism and blatant personal attack, and you can be sure, knowing us, which end of the scale this discourse will be held to. |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
First of all Rob, I would like to commend you for joining the forum and acknowledging that there is a problem with self-slabbing and stating that those coins are "certified". It is obviously a conflict of interest to "certify" your own coins and then sell them. While I feel that it is good that you are "phasing them out", I strongly feel that the truly ethical thing to do here would be to stop selling them immediately. The holders are simply Coin World holders. You could remove the labels and stop calling them certified. That would solve that problem. I understand what you are saying that slabbed coins bring in more money; however, this is not the answer. To clarify my position, I am an ebay seller of numismatic items. This is my full time job and how I pay my bills, feed my family, keep a roof over our head, etc. As such, I recognized a long, long time ago that I could make quite a bit more money if I started basement certifying our coins. I have never done this because it is simply unethical. I pride myself on the fact that our business is 100% honest and upstanding. I have never refused a return and have only had 4 in the 4 years that we have been selling. As such, I do not see how you found it necessary to self-slab. It would seem to me that, as you have been in business for so long, there must be other problems as well. Also, to be completely honest, I have looked at your completed coin auctions and the coins are terribly overgraded. Obviously, this would bring in more money but at the cost of your reputation. Being willing to accept these coins in return does not offset the fact that they are represented in this fashion. You have been in the industry long enough to know this. It angers me that, as an honest, upstanding seller who grades conservatively as I don't agree with market grading, I have to compete against sellers such as yourself who inflate the grades and then are able to get more money for the exact coin that I could be selling even though the coin isn't in actuality worth more. I refuse to lower my ethical standards to compete in this market. We fortunately have a very large customer base and a lot of respect in the numismatic community to offset this, but actions such as yours make new sellers feel that this acceptable, which it most certainly is not. There are more and more ebay sellers who are turning to basement slabbing and overgrading. This is a problem that is self-perpetuating. I have to say that, in light of what I have seen in your auctions and your admission that you self-slab, I am skeptical of a new auction service that you would be providing. For all of the reasons above, I would not recommend to anyone that they should purchase from you. This is my opinion only and others may disagree of course. My opinion is subject to change depending upon how you act in the future. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Rob, first of all, welcome to the forum! It is indeed uncommon yet very welcome to have any response from what is labeled "alphabet" TPGs and it is an indication of your sincerity that you have posted your explanations on CCGS, Howardsdirect, and your intentions for the future. I have worked with COINAF, a coin fraud detection, education, and prosecution unit for several years. CCGS and Howardsdirect has been near the top of our "problem" list for quite some time. Frankly, I think the damage to online numismatics caused by CCGS and Howardsdirect is beyond redemption. There is no means to measure the numbers of new, naive, and inexperienced collectors who have been deceived by ebay sales of self-slabbed CCGS coins by Howardsdirect but these numbers are considerable as measured by the negative feedbacks alone (and there is no means to determine the numbers of dissatisfied customers who preferred not to leave negative/neutral feedback). I might recommend you disassociate yourself from CCGS and Howardsdirect if you are at all intent on establishing and maintaining a credible reputation of your own as an honest and ethical dealer. The feedback of Howardsdirect says it all: http://www.toolhaus.org/cgi-bin/neg...=Received+by There is no way this negative feedback will go away and I do not see any means for recovering Howardsdirect and CCGS to any level of credibility. You need to start afresh. Current case in point: http://cgi.ebay.com/1884-CC-MORGAN-...-R_W0QQitemZ130110828546 Do you really think this 84-CC Morgan is an MS-67? A true MS-67 will have NO bag marks (I see several despite the too-bright images) and will differ from higher grades only by the quality of the strike by all grading standards. If this Morgan were in fact to be graded an MS-67 by one of the top TPGs (PCGS population for 84-CC MS-67 only 55), its value would be in the thousands and more likely to be offered at one of the top auction houses such as Bowers and Merena or Heritage rather than on ebay with a start price of 99 cents and no reserve. I see an awful lot of other CCGS MS-67 coins in the current ebay offering by Howardsdirect. It defies credibility that one coin dealer would happen to have so many high grade coins. And the usual argument that coin grading is "subjective" ignores the fact that grading standards have long been established to minimize this subjectivity to one or perhaps two grades among reputable grading services, dealers, and collectors. Howardsdirect return policy is laudable but if the buyers have little or no knowledge of the actual qualities (grades, condition, cleaned, whizzed, etc) of a coin, they will accept a CCGS slab without question. They will learn its true state only at that point when they (or their heirs many years down the road) attempt to resell it, take it to a reputable coin dealer, show it off at a local coin club, walk onto the bourse of a coin show, or otherwise attempt to liquidate it. Last, the term "Third Party Grading Service" is just that: a disinterested third party which has no vested interest in the grades they assign coins. CCGS's association with Howardsdirect which sells its own slabs and Howardsdirect's attempts to pass them off as independently graded coins is abominable and certainly does draw the attention of fraud detectors. Again, despite your seemingly good intentions to correct the situation, Howardsdirect and CCGS border on fraud and have in the past crossed that line on numerous occasions. You seem like an intelligent and honest man. If I were you, I'd distance myself far, far away from CCGS and Howardsdirect. We really hope to see you again on the forum! We are reasonable people and always welcome opposing viewpoints. Fred |
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Valued Member
United States
56 Posts |
Thanks for the post, but the conflict of interest thing is too much for any self-slabber to overcome. The temptation to raise a coin's grade by a single point when it will put hundreds of dollars in your pocket is just too much.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
Rob,
I really appreciate you tackling this issue head-on in this forum with some of the people who are most affected by it. As SuperDave hints, I think you should unslab and reevaluate all of your coins in semi-sealed packages with your own name on it. I think you'll realize the same or better, market-based prices simply by describing the coin and your reason for giving it a certain grade or describing it a certain way.
Forget comparisons to ernie, his puffery is merely a pet peeve rather than a blight on the whole collecting community. I don't believe that any seller that can be mentioned in the same breath as "aboncom" has much chance of getting my business, so as of now howardsdirect is pretty much not on my radar. Could that change? Possible, but you have a lot of work to do to rehabilitate yourself.
If you're a baseball fan think of yourself as the Barry Bonds of the coin business.
Admit you made a mistake, tell everyone how awful it was, change, and try to move on.
It's great that you seem to want to do something about it, but "phasing it out" isn't the way I would go about it. That's like phasing out of Iraq by sending in 30,000 more troops. I don't buy it.
I could go on, but I'm sure others have a lot to say.
If you're interested in our opinions, come back and update us when you've really done something other than plan to do something.
Thanks.
Mark (HABIB)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1083 Posts |
Unfortunately those of us on this forum are continually having to tell beginning/novice collectors that the "slabbed" coin that they won on ebay from CCGS and other basement slabbers is not in fact an MS-67, is definitely not a bargain at their winning bid, and in fact is not uncirculated at all. What these companies are doing borders on fraud and is in fact very harmful to our hobby. Having a no questions asked return policy does not redeem Howard's coins and affiliates from deceptive practices. In the majority of cases they are relying on the ignorance of the buyer who usually learns the truth long after the return period has expired. In spite of your seemingly reasonable post, I believe that you and your company know exactly what you are doing. My only hope is that forums like this can educate novice buyers enough to put you out of business. I believe the decrease in business you noted for your offerings at Howard's Direct is certainly related to a more educated buying public. Certainly the ebay coin market is not cooling off and demand for fairly graded, authentic material is stronger than ever. That is not what people get when they buy a CCGS slabbed coin. |
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Well said, Okie! I only hope Rob is listening.
Fred
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
According to member listing, Rob has not been back on CC since the first day he posted. I would take that to mean that his original post wasn't very sincere. I guess it was actually an attempt to get some free advertising for his new auction service. I find this very sad since he knows that what he's doing is wrong but doesn't seem to care very much.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
Yep, seems like a silly attempt to whitewash a dirty past...Oh gosh, the suckers are getting wise to us, we better try to make nice.
I personally hope the self-slabbers end up as numismatic roadkill; unfortunately for the rest of us, they will have alienated too many potential collectors and made themselves too much money for any revenge to be very sweet.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Perhaps a suggestion to revisit this thread, from a COINAF email addy, is in order.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
17884 Posts |
quote:
According to member listing, Rob has not been back on CC since the first day he posted. I would take that to mean that his original post wasn't very sincere. I guess it was actually an attempt to get some free advertising for his new auction service.
Darn, I wanted to ask him what Silvertowne thinks about them using the name Silvertowne Auctions. To the best of my knowledge there is no connection between Silvertowne and the firms Howards Direct or Silvertowne Auctions. |
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Forum Mom
United States
5877 Posts |
He's not answering emails sent through ebay either. |
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New Member
United States
5 Posts |
Hello again. Just read through the thread again today. To be honest, I didn't see the replies because there was some confusion after I made the OP. Some links were removed, then the thread was moved, and I lost track of it. I just rediscovered it today. We are a very small firm, and you folks have to understand that my job entails a huge variety of tasks (mainly developing a website), and my non-replies to this thread are more of an indication of me being sidetracked than my sincerity. I did not get the emails sent through ebay. Those emails are not handled by me. I subscribed to the thread, and checked the email daily for quite awhile to track replies, but that probably didn't work because of the thread being moved. So let me say, categorically, that I *do care*. I did not just write the original post to try to "make nice." I wrote it because I randomly found this site, which I had no idea existed, that had some very negative things to say about a business that has been operating succesfully, full time, for 37 years, a business that otherwise has a sterling reputation. Let me be clear: My purpose here is not "whitewashing," it is to correct something that is incorrect: that we are trying to rip people off and we are some "problem" in the industry. I know some of you would disagree with that, and, you know, that's totally fine. But that's where I am coming from. Thanks, by the way, to those who had some very nice things to say. As for the constructive criticism aspect, we do recognize the issues you raise. At last check a few minutes ago, we have about 6 items for sale on ebay, obviously far less than we ever had. I don't expect us to increase that any time soon, if ever at all, except maybe a few things here and there. A few years ago, we literally had thousands of items running. And good call on the pictures. We have always struggled with that here, mainly due to the business being mostly old grizzled coin veterans that, yes, are very poor with technology in general. As to the auction business: If you go to silvertowne.com and look at the main page, you'll see a link that goes directly to our auction site. We have been doing business with Silvertowne for as long as we've been in business. We are good personal friends with virtually everbody there. I would suggest that you call, ask for anybody really, but particularly Leon Hendrickson, Dave Hendrickson, Tony Abel, Tyler Abel, and so on. Call them up and ask about Howard's, and you will get a good indication as to our reputation. In any case, that is for the most part a local Ohio/Indiana/Michigan endeavor. Finally, I should say that my purpose here is not to try to change anyone's mind about CCGS. Really, it is just a marketing gimmick, but obviously I understand why some people would feel a sense of outrage. I'm not allowed to put links in here, but if anyone finds this website I'm working on (it is live), I'd be happy to extend a discount to folks coming from here. My goal with that is to say, ok, you don't like us for X reason. So let me offer you reasons to, at the very least, consider changing your opinion of us from "crooks!" to "Alright, they did something that I disagree with, but they are moving on to something else, maybe they deserve a shot." -Rob |
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Replies: 22 / Views: 7,063 |
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Posted 05/15/2007 2:34 pm
