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1903 Indian Head Cent

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CopperCrazy's Avatar
United States
33 Posts
 Posted 06/27/2013  10:45 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add CopperCrazy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Bought this for $20.00 at my LCS. Starting a collection of AU/MS Indian Heads. What do you think it grades? They had it listed at AU, but idk I think it may be better. Someone on another forum mentioned the spot below the wreath would decrease the value.

1903-Indian-Head-Cent
1903-Indian-Head-Cent
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2013  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think $20.00 is right on for this coin. It sure looks nice, but I'd garner an AU grade out of it at a TPG, and not worth sending in for a grade as the cost of slabbing would cost more than the coin is worth. AU for sure.
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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CopperCrazy's Avatar
United States
33 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2013  12:35 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CopperCrazy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks for your input. Out of curiosity, so next time I go buying another au/ms indian head, what makes this coin AU and not MS? I just want to know what to look for.
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2013  01:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Rub or light wear on the highest parts of the coins design generally. Sometimes you can see a darker area of coloration wear a coin has come into contact with fingers or rubbed against something.

Grading is very subjective and I have spent decades learning, and looking at tens of thousands of coins. I also have paid for ANA seminars and classes on grading at least three week long classes just on grading, several on Counterfeit Detection and a few more on general coin history and coin photography. I listen to the experts that share their knowledge and try to learn each time I see or hear something new. This is a life time of schooling - one never really graduates! Read books on grading Photograde, ANA grading standards, NGC and PCGS also have published books on grading, and use the "photograde" website from PCGS.com to help by comparing to coins in hand against PCGS' grading sets used on their website.

I also look at as many coins as I can at auction viewing sessions, whether or not I plan to bid on them. How often does one get to look at and examine closely early copper US coins in high grade? Auctions are a great place to get hands on experience for nothing. (It does help that I live near by Heritage Coins), there are large auctions at most every major coin show around the country, and regular auctions in LA area and NY area.

One of the biggest challenges (even for experts) is telling an AU from a mint state coin. Knowing strike characteristics of that year and mint helps on a given coin series.

Bottom line it's up to the buyer to make the final determination - regardless of what a TPG such as ANACS, PCGS or NGC, IGC, SEGS say on a slabbed holder. Many times they will even contradict themselves. So much so there is a whole sub-business in coins of buying under-graded slabbed coins and cracking them out to resubmit in hopes of an upgrade. Makes sense when a difference of a couple of points can mean thousands of dollars in profit. (of course there is the chance you loose the same if the TPG goes down a couple of points in the coin submitted), this business model is slowly falling off as the TPG's get tighter about grades they give out.

Hope this rambling helps you understand it's not quite science nor is it concrete! If there was a perfect answer we would all be using the formula!

Great question, and I hope more will chime in on this one!
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
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westcoin's Avatar
United States
9792 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2013  01:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westcoin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also since you are new to CCF and possibly to collecting in general, you need to know about Rick Snow (a friend of mine) the leading expert in Indian Head cents. He is a dealer and author of some fine books. (I get nothing more than the satisfaction of sending potential customers to one heck of a nice guy that is honest in his dealings)

Rick's web site is http://www.indiancent.com - Eagle Eye coins. I'd start with purchasing his RedBook series book, then if it moves you to collect more dive into his specialized books! Books are the place to start learning and will possibly save you from making expensive mistakes, you need not make as you advance your collection.

http://www.indiancent.com/695-a-gui...rd-snow.html

Plus it looks like it's on sale now for under $20.00 (a bargain considering how much info is packed into it).

Edited to add: I see his website front page has links to grading IHC just what you are asking so watch for free on youtube from the expert himself!
"Buy the Book Before You Buy the Coin" - Aaron R. Feldman - "And read it" - Me 2013!
ANA Life Member #3288 in good standing since 1981, ANS, Early American Coppers Member (EAC), Colonial Coin Collectors Club member (C4), Conder Token Collector Club member (CTCC), Civil War Token Society (CWTS) member, Liberty Seated Collectors Club (LSCC) & Numismatic Bibliomania Society member (NBS), USMex, Member in good standing, 2¢ variety collector.

See my want page: http://goccf.com/t/140440
Edited by westcoin
06/28/2013 01:32 am
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CopperCrazy's Avatar
United States
33 Posts
 Posted 06/28/2013  06:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add CopperCrazy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks you so much for your knowledge and time. I know about him and I saw his book on Amazon, and I thought it would be a good investment that could possibly save me $100s down the road. I am new to collecting coins other than the ones I pull from circulation. I will be sure to buy the book now and I will surely see you around. Thanks for your help!
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IndianGoldEagle's Avatar
United States
36738 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  10:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add IndianGoldEagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Nice coin and your dealer had it priced for an AU grade. The coin may have been dipped or cleaned, hard to tell for sure from the photo.
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D0ubl3Eagle's Avatar
United States
5854 Posts
 Posted 06/30/2013  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add D0ubl3Eagle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The coin looks like it may have seen slight circulation. The hair curls under the ribbon looks flattened and dark and a slightly darkened and dulled cheek. The vast majority of original circulated copper that I have seen are completely brown with only a few, mostly in high AU grades, that have traces of original red. It looks slightly circulated but the amount of red suggests a mint state coin which makes me wonder if the color is original or not.
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