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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,532 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Maybe I am imagining things, but in looking at several coin series (Buffalo Nickels, Peace dollars, Kennedy halves, etc) there are many listings for either BU or MS-63 and above and few for MS-60. It would seem to me that the higher the grade the fewer examples. Surely more of the coins sent in for grading would be 60's rather than 63's! Or is it that people just choose to list them as "BU" rather than submitting to a TPG? I can understand this on the Kennedy's better than the Buffalo nickels and Peace dollars (and some other series as well). |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1984 Posts |
Interesting point. It's axiomatic that the higher the grade the fewer examples, i.e. there are fewer MS-68s than MS-67s in most circulated series. But it has been my experience that when I see an uncirculated buffalo, I notice them more in 63 or higher. The ones I encounter that were held out of circulation seem to be generally better than MS-60. Don't know what that's a function of except for the fact that it may be easier to be either MS-63 or AU-58 rather than MS-60. With the series you mention, if I'm not mistaken the UNC (MS-60) premium over the AU-58 price isn't that high except for key dates, so there's no practical difference between AU/UNC for most.
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Valued Member
United States
204 Posts |
I think that dealers are showing what the market is looking for, and right now with the higher end skyrocketing many collectors are probably looking further down the quality line than before. Also with the prices going up maybe more are coming into the market at that grade.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
819 Posts |
If the MS60's in the Buffalo are indeed rarer (scarcer?) than the MS63, should there be a convoluted case where the MS60 sells for more than a 63? That is unless grade trumps availability and even though not very available there is no demand for the lower grade and demand trumps all.
I started on this thought because I wanted to build an Unc (or as near to it as possible within my budget) Buffalo set and began looking for the MS60's, can't find many. It is either BU or MS63. There can be a lot of difference between just "BU" and MS60 in terms of bag damage, etc.
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Valued Member
United States
70 Posts |
quote:
There can be a lot of difference between just "BU" and MS60 in terms of bag damage, etc.
?  I thought BU was just a generic term that means it's an MS coin. I've never seen BU used as an actual grade, MS60 being the bottom grade for an uncirculated coin. Edited by AnemicOak
06/04/2007 4:41 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Brian, it could be.. I don't have my grading guide handy to research, but if they are the same, why the redundancy of using both terms?
To me BU simply means that, Brilliant Uncirculated, an Unc coin with mint luster. It could have all kinds of bag marks and still be "BU" but MS60 would be a cut above and have minimal damage, especially in the choice areas of the coin.
I am sure someone will straighten me (us?) out, there is too much knowledge permeating this site for the answer to avoid the light of the ever-seeing eyes here.
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Valued Member
United States
70 Posts |
I don't know. To me BU is just a generic term, not a grade, for an ungraded MS coin.
A BU coin would have no wear rubs or otherwise it would be AU (of one grade or another). The actual MS grade would tell the actual condition of this BU coin.
Edited by AnemicOak
06/04/2007 6:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1247 Posts |
IMO MS60 is the "man without a country." I don't believe people trust the grade and for good reasons. It's too easy for a coin to circulate but not long enough to have actual wear. Just long enough to show evidence that it was in circulation: rubs, impaired luster, that fetching dirty-sweat in the shallow nicks. Then it becomes too easy to dip them and get rid of the evidence.
At least for awhile anyway.
I'd rather have an toned ("ugly" or not) EF45. There's nothing foggy, fuzzy or "mysterious" about it--It circulated.
Edited by longnine009
06/04/2007 6:57 pm
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Valued Member
United States
214 Posts |
BU stands for Brilliant Uncirculated and describes a coin without wear or evidence of much toning, if at all.
Mint State describes a coin that appears mint, but is can be toned. I always thought a coin found in circulation, but has no wear would be called Mint State because it was obviously circulated.
As far as the rarity of MS60 coins is concerned, it is different for each denomination, and is rare for different reasons for each denomination.
It would fill a book or two trying to hash out all the details.
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Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
According to the standards that I use (which are the old, outdated, more accurate ANA standards), BU is Brilliant Uncirculated and is a term used to describe coins in MS63-MS64 condition. I believe that the reason that graded MS60 coins are not as readily available is due to market grading. It seems that you will find loads of AU58 and MS63 coins. I have seen more MS61 and 62 coins than I have MS60. I also think that many MS60 coins have incorrectly ended up in AU58 slabs with the top tier companies and MS65 or better in alphabet slabs. I think only the old-fashioned people like me still use MS60.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3343 Posts |
I'm not much into uncirculated coins, but I have noticed that oftentimes G-VG's can be scarcer than F-VF's. This is not just in grading service populations (where the lower grade coins are less likely to have the value to justify grading), but is also seen in some of the reference books which consider the whole surviving population. Low grade coins often didn't survive because they wore out. I'd like to think that having a population of 1 made my AG3 1846-C half eagle an R-8 coin....  . As to low grade uncirculated coins, the MS60 grading references I've seen for Peace dollars and walkers are ugly. They're definitely uncirculated, but are poorly struck and baggy, with marks in all the wrong places. Unless they were graded to be sold on TV as "investments", who would bother? "Two minutes ago I would have sold my chances for a tired dime." Fred Astaire
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
longnine, I am beginning to share your sentiments about XF coins. I used to think only BU but am getting more attracted to those coins that have "seen the world through circulation" so to speak, and the price differnce doesn't hurt.
What is turning me off to uncirculated coins is all the various grades with many people trying to push their coins up a grade or two to capitalize on the market. If I can't tell the difference between a 63 and 65 it is not worth the extra premium for the 65.
When I first started there was only XF, AU, UNC, and BU.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
MS60 coins are typically pigs. They're either so hairlined or beat up that it could be hard to call them Mint State or just hard to put them in a good holder as a non-problem coin. Many AU58 coins end up in MS62 holders and vice versa. MS61 coins are typically pretty poor off as well, but MS60 is a rare find indeed and you probably won't care for the eye appeal.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1283 Posts |
I think it's because MS-60 (generally) means a coin that has no evidence of wear, but has excessive contact marks or has other undesireable traits. Like dull toning, or a really weak strike. And just like it's rare for coins to be on the extreme high end of the MS spectrum, it's somewhat rare for them to be on the extreme low end. Obviously an MS-60 is not nearly as rare as a 70, but the same principle applies. In many cases I think an AU-58 is nicer than an MS-60. They usually have a very sharp strike, lovely surfaces and veeeery slight traces of wear that is difficult to detect. For this reason I think a true AU-58 coin is the best bang for your buck in the Coin World. An MS-60 will always demand higher prices, many times with less eye appeal. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
819 Posts |
Some good points made paratrooper
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Valued Member
United States
390 Posts |
I think a big factor in this whole discussion is the cost of sending a coin in for grading. If it is a MS60 coin, the cost of grading will cut in the your actual value quite a bit, where a MS63 coin will be worth more and gives you more room to cover the cost of grading. If a coin is worth $75 as a MS60 and $300 as a MS63, which would you be more inclined to send in for grading?  |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,532 |
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Posted 06/04/2007 3:44 pm
