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1786 MO Ff 2 Reales - How Rare?

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 Posted 10/04/2013  02:08 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add 1bustcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Over the years, I've managed to finally locate a couple examples. Again, pricing by Krause is set at:
VG $200
Fine $350
VF $550
XF $950

I've found one via Pontiero 11-10 at $100 G-VG. Listed as Very Rare.

These appear to be very scarce to rare compared to the FM assayer. Can anyone please comment on price and rarity?

Thanks
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2013  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, pretty scarce... def. moreso than the rarer assayer of 1784 (not the GRTIA error). My observation is that Krause is a bit overblown pricewise on some of the scarcer/rarer in-year assayer varieties in the Bust series (most readily noticeable for Mexico). Not many examples, and I think its even more of a specialist collector thing than, e.g., the Indian-head Lima 2R that was discussed... so it's hard to gauge demand. That said, you got this pretty cheap, I thought. The tape mark would deter some people (not much you can do to help that), but still decent...:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/MEXICO-COLO...380715954398

The one listed variety that does always seem to do pretty well (contrasted with assayer varieties and perhaps also overdates) is obvious engraving errors. Noticed, for example, that a one of the CAOLUS Chile 1/2R popped up on ebay recently and sold quickly for what it was priced at... More major/obvious, I guess. I actually think that error might be just as common as the correct version of that year (1797, I think)... but for the series, it's a nice error type.

Consider this... also Ponterio from earlier in 2011. They had up a 1784 2R GRTIA error, slightly more wear, with a much higher estimate than that 1786 FF 2R. Didn't sell, it seems, but still... compare that to what you see in Krause.
http://www.mcsearch.info/record.html?id=476659
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United States
12 Posts
 Posted 10/04/2013  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1bustcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm impressed by both responses! I am new to the World Series but pick up fairly quick at times.

Thanks for the very helpful information AND links. It is appreciated. You guys are good. Kudos to linking me to the ebay purchase. I want to add in something....not sure why others did not bid higher but it may not mean anything additional. Of all the 1786 FF's, this was chosen for two other reasons:
1) New obverse die. Note the position of letters.
2) It quite possibly may be the first in emission striking? It possibly was retired early? It has a major obverse die crack Rim-I-lower Bust-into field (as I'm typing I am going on memory....coin not in hand but you linked the pic).
*Note: the more "common" obverse has a vertical die crack in the left field.
I have seen 6-7 examples and this is the first new obverse. In any event, I felt it had potiential...
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2013  02:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting that it's a different obv die... there couldn't have been many different die pairings for this date/assayer, I wouldn't think... And, certainly, this ebay piece is genuine. Have you found an obv match with an FM reverse?

See, the one thing - bringing up traits like relative die states, different obverses... By and large, I just don't think the community that generally collects Spanish/Spanish colonial coinage cares all that much about such things... The level of sophistication (pedanticism?) involved in, say, Overton bust halves, VAMs, State Coppers, or similar just isn't there. Maybe if enough people join you, there will be.

The one Spanish coinage sector where the early American collecting crowd has jumped in and really tried to get into the particulars (die pairings, etc.)... is actually the fake stuff - namely, the Kleeberg-type contemporary counterfeit 2R.
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United States
12 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2013  10:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1bustcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I haven't started looking into the possibility of trying to match the FM reverse as of yet, but I will soon - thanks.

I agree with your opinion concerning general interest/demand on something like this. The U.S. market is much different and heavily researched for the most part. Hopefully, as the years roll on more collectors, individuals, auction houses and true researchers will start self publishing even if it is something minimal for the collecting community. I won't hold my breath, but I am aware the interest is there. Research takes much time, the communication is very important, photography is yet another facet along with the task of publishing can be viewed as demanding but in the end it is very rewarding.

If I locate a match to my 2 Reales I'll start posting pictures.
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United States
1962 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2013  12:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add realeswatcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I will say this - I stumbled on a thread about VAMs on the PCGS boards yesterday while looking up something else... 30x or bigger blown up pics of these barely noticeable, inconsequential die flaws... I just shake my head. There's a fine line, I think, between sophisticated collecting... and giant geek.
New Member
United States
12 Posts
 Posted 10/05/2013  5:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 1bustcollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have always felt "Dramatics" on a coin usually does well. If you need a 30X, well......not my style.
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