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 Replies: 38 / Views: 7,644 |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
That's an excellent news ! From the discussion I've been participating on on Facebook, one of the counterstamps (YII with chinese stuffs - http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002739 ) is a fake which was listed in Germany many times already. The seller clearly knows what he is doing ... it would be a good idea for them to check everything this consignor gave : I bet all this crap comes from the same person. If this is the case, a warning to other auction houses should be issues as well. |
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Pillar of the Community
 2087 Posts |
I wish my German language skills were better as I could directly go off to the local police station. With my poor skills and strong kiwi accent I will just confuse them. However next week I am working with some Police from the Austrian interior ministry...I will be having a long talk to them about it! Edit: Although I am giving the auctioneer the benefit of the doubt there is one thing that doesn't look good: the auctioneer is selling 20th century restrike MTT correctly attributed: here is a London example that auctioneer has listed in the same auction: http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002712Edited by austrokiwi
11/18/2013 12:08 pm
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
austrokiwi : maybe the attribution was given by the consignor, and they didn't bothered.
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Quote:
maybe the attribution was given by the consignor, and they didn't bothered. thanks for stating that....Its what I was thinking but I realize my post could have been read another way. Regarding why it doesn't look good: Of all the auction houses in Europe ( probably the world) Fruewald has specialized in MTT. Its the one place you can usually find an interesting MTT variety. Therefore one would expect them to have and apply their specialist knowledge when it comes to Counter-stamps on MTT. The fact they didn't ( and I don't think its any more suspicious than that) is worrying. Edited by austrokiwi
11/18/2013 7:06 pm
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I hope the discussion we are having here will help. Posting the link to that topic on the facebook page as well.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Some more news from the group ... Seems that SAME auction house has been posting the SAME fake coin 4 times already : http://www.mcsearch.info/search.htm...sort&c&a&l#0Considering this, and the blatant fakes they have listed, serious doubts about the way this auction house works are coming ... For those who are aware, it also seems that many coin they have listed are of the same "Juan Melgar" type I've been hunting. Melgar is the guy who was selling most of that type of fakes, and also a book on counterstamp full of those fakes. It doesn't mean it's him, but the coin at least are from the same origin. |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
For now my final comment. I have my own collecting specialty and I see others with a different focus and although what they collect isn't to my taste I have no problem with another collectors interest. Its the same with countermarked MTT. I do have some in my collection but generally all of them are modern counterstamps produced for specific reasons. Mel Wacks produced an interesting Bicentenial thaler in 1980. The Missouri Numismatic society produced one in 1963. A dealer in Guenzburg has produced three( really they are over-strikes), Herr Hafner even produced one. The key point with those counter-stamps is that they were produced for specific reasons and buyers know what they are getting when they purchase those coins. I start to have concerns when Counter-stamps are sold with doubtful provenance and no associated warning. As I noted earlier Stephan album,IMHO, does it the right way he warns buyers when he has doubts about counter-marked MTT.
When one digs into the literature, one finds considerable doubt about the hejaz, nejd and other issues. The only countermarks documented as being produced at the time they a attributed to are those from Mozambique. One solid reference "Counter-marks on Ottoman Coins" by Hans Wilski 1995 ISBN 3-9803482-2-9 . Says this on Hejaz countermarks on MTT:
" The present author has never seen an Ottoman silver coin with the countermark "Hejaz". The same is true for Dr Schuster,Vienna .....who stayed for several years again and again in Jidda(former state of Hejaz). Mr Popp Mainz has traveled through the Yemen between the years 1980-1994. There he saw thousands of silver coins(also innumerable Maria Theresa Thaler) but never one with the counter mark Hejaz. {further on in the section} In summary the arguments given above lead to the conclusion that all Hejaz countermarks on Silver coins are forgeries".
In the section on the Nejd quoting Dr Schuster: "The counter-marks Hejaz and Nejd were in part unequivocally recognized as newly manufactured."
IMHO any Professional seller of Counter-marked MTT needs to note the doubt about the genuineness of the counter-marks!!
With such a warning in place the principle of buyer beware is then in full force!!
Edited by austrokiwi
11/19/2013 06:17 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
That's so true ...
And when it comes to clearly fakes one, they should just refuse to sell them (I'm talking about what I know better, the YII counterstamp with a wrong design and applied on a coin minted a century later)
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
All credit to Baldwins I just received this reply:
"Thank you very much for the email.
We did receive your previous comments and subsequently went about undertaking some further investigations. There does seem to be some general variations in the thoughts about these countermarks and not all are considered contemporary, albeit "genuine".
However, we have now decided to withdraw these two lots (781 and 782) from the auction."
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
I have to admit that I am seriously disturbed by this Frühwald auction. I did not fully grasp its contents immediately after the publication of the catalog online, because it does not list any fake counterstamps from the "Mexico" production line of the Melgar fakes, so my search filters did not catch it.
If you look at all the countermarked coins side by side (I did this by searching for "Kontermarke" on the Sixbid site), I think that even to a numismatist with little experience in countermarks it becomes immediately clear that most of these coins must come from the same production facility. They are too alike in the overall style to be a wide assortment of countermarks that have been applied by different people in different places at different times.
Moreover, in some of the lot descriptions, Frühwald cite the "Fuente Freyre" catalog, which I assume are the infamous publications placed on the internet under this name with which the counterfeiters try to give some credence to their products. To have seen this publication and to not smell anything fishy about it is just, well, little professional.
I find it simply hard to believe that an auction house would be willing to put that many counterstamps in one sale, many of which would be one-time, sensational pieces if true, withourt checking the background and without at least trying to show in their lot description that they have had their thoughts about the originality of the items and that they have, for whatever reason, come to the conclusion that they are good.
To me, Frühwald must be completely aware of the doubtfulness of these pieces!
In the past, I have objected to one Melgar piece when it turned up in a Spanish auction, and the lot was withdrawn. I have pointed out other fakes in auctions in the US, Switzerland and Germany, and in all cases the people continued to speak to me afterwards. But these were single items, stuff that "slipped through", as it might happen, and the houses were professional about it.
Especially with many of the coins having been put up by Frühwald before, I would assume that the auction house had people inquiring about the coins in the past. They are clearly not selling these as "novelty items". There would be nothing wrong with describing them as "most likely modern inventions", and if people want to pay hundreds of dollars for fake counterstamps, well, so be it. But in this case, these coins are in the World Wide Web as good coins, and regardless of whether they sell and at which price, they will be out there for people to research and find them and take them for good in the future!
So I am really curious about what will happen here. I can understand that it might be hard for them to take off dozens of coins from an auction, so they'll probably try to wiggle their way out of it somehow. But the fact remains that these are fakes.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I see another issue here : such fakes being sold by a big auction house give them a pedigree ...
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Valued Member
Germany
194 Posts |
The pedigree Frühwald failed to establish on them  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have just read this thread - it is fascinating. But much said here would fall on deaf ears if presented to the "average coin dealer". I also immediately thought of Mr. Melgar and his book on counter stamps when I saw the MTTs with the Arabic stamps. I think the common understanding that links this thread to the one I have been involved in is the motivation that drives all too many in numismatics is profit. When placed first profit corrupts everything. Just today on ebay an impossible item was reported. An MS 70 grade Strike-Doubled coin. When did Strike Doubling stop being "damage" and when did MS-70 begin including damaged coins of any kind? Fraud will be firmly established in our Hobby as long as the average collector is willing to be duped by a label , a pedigree or blind faith in anyone or anything. |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Does anyone have news from the auction house ? It's starting in two weeks.
Thanks !
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
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Replies: 38 / Views: 7,644 |
First Page
Posted 11/18/2013 10:32 am
