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 Replies: 38 / Views: 7,642 |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Some of you know my concerns about this. I just received auction catalog 103 from Fruhwald auctions in Salzburg. In the back of the catalog was a preview of lots for Auction 104. There is a range of MTT and as usual heaps of counter-marked examples: the very last picture is of a countermarked MTT apparently dating to 1912 Ankara: the starting price €1000.00. However the base coin is a London mint coin....the earliest it could have been struck is 1937. From past experience some idiot is going to pay €2000 for this coin. I suspect the auction may not be til next year....Once its on line I'll post a link.
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Thank you your information, austrokiwi. Do you think the related auction house is crooked or they don't realize it is fake?
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Pillar of the Community
 2087 Posts |
They have the knowledge to identify it but I don't think they have bothered looking at it closely. They are normally very good...but when it comes to counterstamped MTT there are idiots who will spend a mint for a fake! IF the auction house things thats what they'll get for it....good on them.... Given its for their next auction I don't expect it to be online till much later this year or next. It will be an interesting auction all the same the state they have 700 MTT from 1741-1780
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New Member
Poland
7 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Thanks Nobleman.... We are aware of that web site. Actually that chart is based on Dr Franz Leypolds 1976 work unfortunately it hasn't been updated with his later 1986 revision
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New Member
Poland
7 Posts |
For now I found no newer
sources of information about
the graphs of the thaler - the
allegro.pl occur mostly copies
of the coins in silver and cast
metal minted in China, this
Chinese falsa seen on the
markets along with morgan -
original coins are available in
good sellers also on allegro
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Finally the auction house with the Countermarked MTT that started the thread has put the auction on line. they have a heap of countermarked MTT and expect high prices. However a significant number of them have to be fakes: heres a sample. BTW the auction house is trustworthy.....the fact is its idiot buyers who make the market for these numismatic travesties....as long as collectors buy and don't challenge the sellers this market in fakes will thrive: First one countermark is reported to be from the 19th century. Base coin is a london mint strike with the earliest minting date 1937: http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002719 Next one the same points as for the first: http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002726A shocker the counter-mark is reported to be 1849 base coin looks to be a post 1937 london mint strike! they expect €2500.00 ( US$3400.00) I am confident there will be some out there who will pay that amount and think the coin actually dates to 1849. http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002746another US$3400 fake also on london mint coin http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002750A doubtful one. Coin looks to be a Vienna 1932-1935 strike. but counter marks attributed to 1926. this one would have to be examined in person to really check it propery http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002764 And the winner countermark dates to circa 1912. coin is a post 1937 london mint strike: http://www.sixbid.com/browse.html?a...&lot=1002778Some one else might want to peruse the auction and see what other possible travesties there are. I am sure there are more generally the London mint base coins are the easiest to spot with the photo quality provided. the fact is many auctioneers will warn buyers that these are possible spurious( most often used word) issues( meaning fake) but idiots in the market keep this particular market going. I avoid nearly all Counter-marked MTTs on the basis that they have ( mostly) no numismatic value and one day the market bubble for these coins will burst. I am sure some of you might want to purchase such coins, all I can say is do so at your own risK Edited by austrokiwi
11/17/2013 05:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
austrokiwi : I've received notification for this auctions yesterday, and when I saw those counterstamps - without knowing anything about them ...
My first thought went to Juan Melgar.
Some of the punches and reverse look just like some fakes he is making or selling.
With what you are saying here - you have solid facts to support this assumption : the best to do is to contact the auction house to warn them about it and educate them so they can know better about the coins they are selling. Considering the sums in consideration eventually take legal actions against the seller (which know what he is doing for sure - I bet that the same guy is behind all those).
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Matheiuma. I used to do exactly that... I most recently contacted Baldwins about such a fake.......the response..... well I'm still waiting. Stephen Album is meticulous in warning buyers that these "issues" should be regarded as spurious but he still sells them for high prices and some of his sales are in the auction those links were taken from. However most auction houses even when they have the skills( like Freuwald in Salzburg) don't examine the coins closely. The market for their profit is too great and way too tolerant. The only way I know how to fight these things is to identify the coins to other collectors. Until collectors( other than me start challenging sellers (and preferably refuse to touch them) Auctioneers around the world will continue to fail to look closely at what consigners provide to them. I was tempted to contact Fruewald but I recently had experience with a buyer who black listed me because I told them the coins they were selling were re-strikes and I don't want to risk the same with Fruewald. I do get good coins from Fruewald and I find in all other areas they are highly professional. IMHO they are following the market, I know other equally reputable firms do much the same. There is one other thing I am doing: I offered to take a mini-seminar on the MTT at next years ANA seminar. One of the last sections of the presentation will be on the risk of counter-marks The ANA accepted my offer however it will only run if enough people sign up.For me its important to invest ( I have to pay to attend and fork out on the air fares) in providing such presentations. {Sorry for the following advertisement} Any one thinking about the summer seminar...please consider signing up the info you will get will help you and you will gain information to share with other numismatists. What really surprises me; numismatists around the world devote considerable effort to check that what they are buying is genuine, yet with Counter-marked MTT their numismatic brain cells seem to turn off! Edited by austrokiwi
11/17/2013 07:50 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
What you are saying is just amazing. I've contacted Heritage Auctions about some fakes - which ended being removed. I did the same with Stack & Bowers, the coin was removed. I know some other did this with Cayon, and he removed some fakes from the Jose Leunda auction two years ago.
We are talking about numismatic forgeries here, nothing else.
On the facebook group I manage (the group was started by myself with Sedwick and Glenn from the Segovia mint) - we only talk about spanish counterfeits - so I can't post them here :D.
But as members, we have many auctioneers as well as sellers ... I'm sure it helps when they see their coins listed here ;)
Someday I will take time to do a proper website, where was can list other fakes as well, and archive discussions about those.
(you could also start your facebook group the same way, with a couple of other specialists on the matter)
I'm sure some advertisement for those fakes lots will make them change their mind - and will at the same time educate buyers :D
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
Quote:
What you are saying is just amazing Its an understatement: The impression I have gained is that with other fakes the chances of reputation damage and of being caught are much higher. but with counter-stamps on a re-strike....well a re-strike isn't a real coin and with the MTT so few people know how to attribute them the chances of "being caught out" are considerably reduced..further more the auctioneer can plead " it was sold in good faith" Also the damage has been done in numismatic terms. At one time it was hoped that counter-stamps would help date the coins they adorned......now with all the fakes important knowledge has been destroyed forever!! the fakers are effectively in the same camp as a developer who bulldozes an archaeological site...the damage is permanent and a crime!! |
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Pillar of the Community
Hong Kong
1270 Posts |
Thank you your information and devotion in disclosing the fraud MTT counterstamps. The first and second coins are surely a London strike (1-2-1 feather version), so the counterstamps on them are fake. No comments on others as I am not familiar with these counterstamps.
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I've decided to take action, as some of the c/s bear the YII spanish one.
I'll post the informations above as well.
As it's not my field, I've just posted the two first which were confirmed by two members here.
Edited by MathieuMa
11/18/2013 08:00 am
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Pillar of the Community
2087 Posts |
I have also reverted back to Baldwins: they have responded this time and I gave them the necessary references to confirm what I am alleging. I must admit mentioning that comment has been made online gets better attention. Unfortunately the head of the auction is off sick..but given the seriousness of the reply I suspect they will look into it with considerably more attention than I have previously experienced.
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Replies: 38 / Views: 7,642 |
Posted 10/17/2013 10:57 am
