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Dipping My Toes Into Making Money Off Coin Photography...

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FadeToBlack's Avatar
1751 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  4:49 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I've thought about printing out some business cards (Say, 200) and dropping them off with some local dealers and offering them a cut of any business they send my way. The real question is what do I price my services at, and what cut do I offer the dealers? I'm no BRG or Todd (BluCC) so I'm obviously not going to compete with them on pricing... Something like $4 a coin with a 5 coin minimum for unedited/uncropped shots seems fair to me, cheaper for bulk lots, then charge more for different levels of editing.

So something like;

$4 - Unedited
$5 - Cropped and sized appropriately
$6 - Cropped, sized, combined and labeled.
$8 - Cropped, sized, combined, labeled, and macro shots of specific details.


As for the dealers cut... 10%? 20%? Flat dollar amount per customer? I don't think I have much competition, these dealers don't have much of an online presence or anything.
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tpg22's Avatar
United States
919 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  5:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tpg22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Good luck. Make sure to protect yourself against claims of damaging someones coin in the process.
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FadeToBlack's Avatar
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 Posted 10/23/2013  5:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Good luck. Make sure to protect yourself against claims of damaging someones coin in the process.

How would one do that? Quick photo shots of the coins when initially received? Insurance? Do slabbed only?
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Canadian-Banknotes's Avatar
Canada
4944 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Canadian-Banknotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Make sure to protect yourself against claims of damaging someones coin in the process.

I would imagine this will be the toughest part of the business.


Quote:
How would one do that? Quick photo shots of the coins when initially received? Insurance? Do slabbed only?

I think something you could do to protect yourself from this would be to record yourself opening the package, and showing each coin to the camera. Once the person receives their coins, and approves that no damage has been done, you could delete the video (Just so you aren't using so much hard drive space - or, buy a separate external hard drive, and keep everything in folders on there. For example, you would have a file named "Canadian-Banknotes" with all the images of my coins, and videos opening the packages you received. Just incase something comes up down the road.)

The reason I don't think taking pictures upon receiving the coins would work is because there would be nothing stopping you from damaging a coin, taking a picture, then saying it was damaged when it arrived.
Edited by Canadian-Banknotes
10/23/2013 6:03 pm
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tpg22's Avatar
United States
919 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  6:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tpg22 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure exactly how to do it, but I have read threads on this forum where people think PCGS or NGC have damaged their coins and it usually ends with someone unhappy.
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FadeToBlack's Avatar
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 Posted 10/23/2013  6:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think recording the transfer/receipt of the coins would be the best way. I'd probably keep a copy regardless because without a copy, you have no proof of the condition of the coins upon receipt.
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Canadian-Banknotes's Avatar
Canada
4944 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  6:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Canadian-Banknotes to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I think recording the transfer/receipt of the coins would be the best way. I'd probably keep a copy regardless because without a copy, you have no proof of the condition of the coins upon receipt.

Yeah, Just keep all the information on a separate External Hard Drive.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4592 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  10:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Also, purchase a $1M personal liability umbrella policy. It should cost a few hundred / year and covers all kinds of misc liability. I carried one when I was doing single-shingle consulting just for the peace of mind.
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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Wade's Avatar
Canada
2781 Posts
 Posted 10/23/2013  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Wade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
guessing no one is going to have anything done that is valued under $100 each - which means someone has to hand over $500 worth of coins to a complete stranger and hope they don't go missing or get damaged?

take pictures with the owner present, eliminate all the risk. maybe come up with a mobile set up and meet at the dealer's store (while you are there you will run into more customers and be self-promoting).

also, I don't see the point of offering an un-edited picture, if someone can figure out how to crop & edit then chances are they can also work a digital camera. if your results are far superior to what the average joe can accomplish on his own then you shouldn't have a problem selling a full service.

lastly, you might want to think about a dollar amount minimum instead of a coin minimum. say $15 or $20 for the first and then $5 each after that. you make out ok doing a single coin, or a batch.

good luck
Edited by Wade
10/23/2013 10:37 pm
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icollectyoubuy's Avatar
United States
213 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2013  8:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add icollectyoubuy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
If I were doing this I would personally go to the dealer to take the images. It's a big risk having them send you the coins and the shipping prices would be a hassle. Maybe offer this service this at shows.
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BStrauss3's Avatar
United States
4592 Posts
 Posted 10/24/2013  9:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BStrauss3 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
NGC charges $5 for a lo-res, $15 for high-res image (in addition to grading charges).
-----Burton
50+ year / Life / Emeritus ANA member (joined 12/1/1973)
Life member: Numismatics International, CONECA
Member: TNA, FtWCC, NETCC, EveryCountry (online) coin club
Owned by three cats and a wife of 40+ years (joined 1983)

Author: 3rd Edition of the Sample Slabs book, https://www.sampleslabs.info/
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2013  09:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
FadeToBlack, I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here, and you're probably not going to like what I have to say. I do not wish to antagonize you and don't want this to be taken as argumentative, but I have to dissuade you from this course. Here's why:

1) Personal issues. Only higher-end coins justify paid photography, obviously. A starting value of, say, $150-200 and up into the stratosphere. Would you, as the owner of a $1500 monster-toner MS66 Morgan, send your coin off to someone you don't know to shoot? Of course not. This is your highest hurdle - forming a broad-enough reputation so that personal recommendations of people known to a prospective customer will create sufficient trust for you to be accepted sight-unseen as a viable vendor. It's a cart-before-the-horse thing, and it will take you years to create that effect, one person at a time.

2) Guarantee. Insurance won't do it; anyone can claim to have insurance. You need to be bonded, from a source reliable-enough for (again) sight-unseen trust, and you have to be able to verifiably prove that bonding via independent resources available to your customers.

3) Quality. This is the touchiest part; please don't take offense. The images I've seen you present are highly-detailed and sharply-focused, but they aren't in Todd's league. He has something I (possibly you; I don't know yet) lack: the ability to visualize how the coin should look, and to vary his technique to most-agreeably present that coin. And that variance in necessary technique is very broad. You've a very nice touch with lustrous Morgans, but what it takes to nail a lustrous Morgan has nothing whatsoever with what it takes to nail a Proof. Or a toner. Or gold. Or a circulated Large Cent. The range of skills is great, encompassing very subtle variances in lighting and setup.

I've been doing this since 2005, progressively learning and shooting a lot of images. My archive - and these are only the images I've kept, mind - spans 50GB and over 20,000 images. And I still have a bunch to learn about the field.

I'm not saying you can't get there; in fact, I strongly believe otherwise. What I'm saying is, you're not there yet. You're going to need coins of all shapes, sizes and finishes to achieve this, because learning something new with a customer's coin in-hand is not the right way to do things. Shoot a couple of Proofs to get my point most easily; they're unlike anything else.

4) History. Anecdote: Last January at FUN, a guy walked up to the CCF table to talk to Russ (twohawks) about his Morgans. Russ had this glorious Morgan toner, a coin I wasn't able to do justice with the limited resources I had at hand - although I was shooting with an 18MP Canon dSLR and 100mm Macro, I lacked the axial-lighting setup and utter blackout conditions such a coin required.

Anyway, this guy whipped out a little pocketable Canon point-and-shoot, and on the first snap recorded an image of that toner so faithful, so vibrant, that I almost quit coin photography on the spot. As it turned out, the camera was Canon's highest-end P&S, and the guy holding it was John Baumgartner, proprietor of Varslab, nationally-known attributor of VAMs and Bust Halves and one of the finest photographers in the hobby. He knew something I didn't, and it was a big-enough gap in knowledge as to be near-magic to me.

What he knew was amazingly simple: In a brightly-lit room, with no control over lighting, a small point-and-shoot with a quality internal processor is simply a better tool for imaging coins than the highest-end bespoke dSLR rig. Further, he knew enough not to worry about creating a 4000-pixel monster image; just enough of an image to present in highly agreeable fashion online.

That one snap taught me more about coin photography than all my efforts of the previous three years, combined, after we'd talked about it.

The takeaway is this: Going forward, the need for skilled, specialized photographers such as us will be a steadily-decreasing market. This forum is proof, on a smaller scale. We're developing new techniques, teaching new photographers, and leveraging new technology as fast as we possibly can, to the detriment of specialization. There are people here taking presentation-quality images with cellphones, fer cryin' out loud.

The things you see Ray, and myself, and CaptainFwiffo and others doing in this forum are merely self-serving. We're extending the upper limits for fun, not necessarily for any real-world application, just because we like pushing those limits. We're working in the last few percentage points of quality, and the only way that quality has any applicability in the real world is when the photographer extends their knowledge into both the broad area of postprocessing and the narrow subspecialty of micro-imaging using a microscope objective or equivalent. The reason we're still lassoing new photographers into the dSLR-bellows-duplicating lens setup is that, for the same money as a nice P&S, one can have the full gamut of photography from full-face to microscopic detail. That cost equation will likely not change - cellphone cameras will make lower-end P&S's obsolete very soon if not already, so the cost will not be coming down. And the people we're teaching have a genuine interest, a dedication to their coins which puts them into the upper echelon of numismatists. Not everybody has that intense, detailed focus on their collection.

But for just shooting a nice image of a coin, which you can post online in gradable quality, well, that ability is going to be accessible to anyone within the next few years. With only a little effort to maximize one's knowledge, and the willingness to purchase the right technology, that goal is already available to all.

And realistically defining the needs and desires of potential customers - especially in an atmosphere where TPG's are already shooting security-quality images of submissions - the end is in sight for professional, archive-quality photographers.

Put bluntly, you're 5 years too late, and I feel that pursuing this course will only be an exercise in frustration for you.
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brg5658's Avatar
United States
627 Posts
 Posted 10/25/2013  09:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add brg5658 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
For the record, as I think FadeToBlack thinks otherwise, I have never photographed a coin for pay.

I have imaged some coins for friends, and I even created a website 2 years ago thinking that I wanted to image coins for pay. But, I found that imaging coins for friends on occasion kept the hobby fun -- while, thinking of all of the other things people have pointed out is not fun at all. Insurance, deadlines, picky customers, etc...all of those things make a fun hobby a chore.

Another thing that I think no one has mentioned is that coin images are also highly dependent on personal preference. One person may want to see a coin tilted into the light with bright surfaces showing color and glass like fields -- a'la the style of PCGS TrueView images (Phil Arnold). Another person may want a straight on view showing the cameo contrast or the luster bands, etc. The point is, even photographers who do this for a living can't read minds. Even the style of Todd (BluCC) is not for everyone -- I love how his DMPL Morgans look, but I don't like the look of copper Conder Tokens I have seen him photograph. That doesn't mean they're poor quality, I just don't personally like the look of them. I consider myself a people person, but unless you're going to make a full time job of back-and-forth with customers, and shooting multiple versions of coins, etc. -- it's a fool's errand. And again, a "fun-killer" for me.

Now to give credit where credit is due: Ray and Dave on this forum advanced my photography forward from crummy lusterless P&S garbage, to what I consider "professional quality"...and they did so over about 2 months of constant advice, and continued mentorship & tutelage over the past 2+ years -- particularly here on these boards. In the past year I have had about a half dozen friends send me coins to photograph (none of whom I have met in person -- but I have met and gotten to know on varying forums). Building that trust first is imperative. I would presume much of Todd's business comes from people who met him first in person at a show, and then continue to send him coins thereafter. John Baumgart (messydesk) is another great numismatic photographer, but if I recall he has shot images for the Smithsonian and other high profile customers. This gives you credibility and trust points...

Long story short -- I wouldn't recommend going the route of starting a business. Of course you can do what you'd like, but keeping it a hobby certainly has made it more enjoyable for me. It also encourages growth and experimentation, as you have time to "play around" instead of just trying to get the most recent order out the door.

Cheers,
-Brandon

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FadeToBlack's Avatar
1751 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2013  01:37 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Blunt advice is my preferred advice, so thanks Dave... BRG, I didn't know you don't shoot for money, I thought you did, my mistake. :)

Anyway, I don't want to make a job out of it or anything, just maybe 5-6 hours a week on the side would be more than enough... and yeah, I think the limitations involved are far too great to make overcoming them worth the time. I did talk to some local dealers, they mentioned there aren't many coin collectors in the area who have a need for photography, but the one did say that he was looking to start moving material on ebay and offered to have me come in and shoot 40-50 coins a week for him. I haggled a price of $100 store credit to do it every week, for just cropped shots, no further editing. So we'll see how that works out... In the meantime, I ordered some new lights and some of those GE Reveal bulbs to play around with. My fiancee is suggesting a lightbox, wonder how well that would work.
Edited by FadeToBlack
10/27/2013 01:38 am
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