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Difference Between MS-69 And MS-70

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stampvirgin's Avatar
United States
1247 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2013  2:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add stampvirgin to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Looking at the ATB 5 oz coins for sale (2012), there is almost a doubling of prices between a ms-69 and ms-70.

Why such a high premium? and is it worth it?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 10/27/2013  2:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Why such a high premium? and is it worth it?



The premium is high because fools will pay it, which ought to also answer your second question.
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stampvirgin's Avatar
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 Posted 10/27/2013  2:34 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add stampvirgin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
thanks SuperDave
I guess I will just look for plain old bullion versions of this coin, if I can find it.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 10/27/2013  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Keep in mind, "70" is not the lofty and near-unattainable goal that it was a couple of decades ago. These days, with the coins which the Mint really takes care to produce, it's more of an "expectation" than a "goal." Many collectors have not yet moved the goalposts in their expectations to match this new reality.

Furthermore, TPG evaluation of 70's is all over the map. PCGS is the strictest of them when awarding 70's, but I've seen what should be considered egregious errors in their slabs as well. A 70 is perfect. Any deviation from perfection, at reasonable magnification, is not a 70. I've seen plenty of "true" 70's in Heritage Auctions' massive, high-resolution auction archives, and also examples in "70" slabs with flaws easily-visible at that resolution.

It's too haphazard for me to believe a 70 under normal circumstances, and too easily-achievable to assign the kind of premiums they're getting.
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solotime's Avatar
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2311 Posts
 Posted 10/27/2013  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add solotime to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's the other reason:

MS-69 & PR-69 Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary
MS-70 & PR-70 As struck, with full strike
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denco7's Avatar
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 Posted 10/27/2013  4:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The biggest difference is not in the quality, but in the market place. People seem to be a lot more willing to pay a premium for a percieved (?) Miniscule upgrade in quality. Keep that in mind, if you foresee selling somewhere down the road.
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numismo's Avatar
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 Posted 10/27/2013  4:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add numismo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I heard it from an insider in the coin industry who shall remain nameless that when modern bullion coins are submitted in bulk for grading, a cursory look is given them and then they are put into two piles. One pile gets a 69 designation and the other a 70. John Q. wouldn't know a 64 from a 66, much less a 69 from a 70, but he'll pay big bucks for bragging rights about his "perfect" coins. Sad. Graded bullion is a pet peeve of mine because it means nothing except big dollars for those that prey on the less than astute and unsuspecting.
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basebal21's Avatar
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 Posted 10/27/2013  5:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add basebal21 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I heard it from an insider in the coin industry who shall remain nameless that when modern bullion coins are submitted in bulk for grading, a cursory look is given them and then they are put into two piles. One pile gets a 69 designation and the other a 70.


Theres a reason why no one is ever willing to attach their name to such claims.
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 10/28/2013  12:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The premium is high because fools will pay it, which ought to also answer your second question.
I could not have said it any better.
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 Posted 10/28/2013  1:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rodorr to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What really gets me is, besides buying a coin graded a 69 or a 70, they are trying to sell said coin at a premium depending on what 'label' the slab has, i.e. "Flag", "San Francisco Mint", etc... When will it stop!!

rodorr
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jbuck's Avatar
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 Posted 10/28/2013  3:05 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jbuck to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
When will it stop!!
When people quit buying it.

In other words, never.
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denco7's Avatar
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 Posted 10/28/2013  4:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The premium is high because fools will pay it, which ought to also answer your second question.



Quote:
What really gets me is, besides buying a coin graded a 69 or a 70, they are trying to sell said coin at a premium depending on what 'label' the slab has, i.e. "Flag", "San Francisco Mint", etc... When will it stop!!


Once again, the age old debate, what makes a collectible ?
Is a red car more valuable that a green one ? No, but ask any dealer and he will tell you people will pay more for the exact same car in red. Is an Upper Deck Jeter rookie card better than a Topps Jeter rookie card ? But some people will pay a premium for a Topps, Donruss or UpperDeck card.

No one can say that a MS70 isn't worth more than a MS69, because quite frankly it is. Check the marketplace. Intrinsically they are all one ounce of silver and worth no more than 1oz of silver. The desirability in the market place will tell you what is worth it and what is not. Tell me why an MS 1893s Morgan is worth with a mintage of 100,000 is worth 50X more than my MS 1998 Libertad with a mintage of 67.000.

Collect what you like , get your best deal from the marketplace and don't consider your selve a " fool " for valuing a 70 over a 69.


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BadToTheBone's Avatar
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 Posted 10/28/2013  11:39 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadToTheBone to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with denco7 500% he has nailed it on the head. Myself I usually go for MS70 if its reasonably close in price to a MS69. If the difference is too great I will go with a MS69 every time! Once I even bought a MS68 because the price of the coin in MS69 and MS70 was extremely high so I got a good looking 68.
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Joseph7420's Avatar
Canada
11922 Posts
 Posted 10/29/2013  09:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Joseph7420 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Grade 70 is supposed to be a perfect coin.
Grade 69 is flawed.

People want to go for the best of the best and don't mind competing for it. If they want the best they won't want to own a flawed coin. So their willing to pay ridicules amounts of money.

Unlike me, in my date sets I try to keep everything at least a 12 (though some are 10)... ..
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Conder101's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2013  06:52 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Conder101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Grade 70 is supposed to be a perfect coin.
Grade 69 is flawed.

Can you see the flaw on the 69? In a great many cases no. But you will pay a big premium for that 70 that you can't tell from the 69 just because of the number on the label.
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rachums107's Avatar
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 Posted 10/30/2013  3:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rachums107 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There shouldnt be such a thing as 70. It should simply be an unobtainable grade that we hope to find someday but never do. But some of those coins the mint produces are prettttty darn close.
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