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Any New Ideas? Changing British History As It Is Wriiten

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United Kingdom
10 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2013  08:47 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add petitioncrown to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The Earliest Dated English Coin was a Groat (4 d - a French gros) struck by Henry VIII in the then French city of Tournai (now Belgium) in 1513.This piece bears the date 1513 in Arabic numerals.

HENRIC. 8. DI. GRA. FRANCIE. ET. ANGLIE. REX
Henry VIII by the Grace of God King of France and England
CIVITAS TORNA CENSIS 1:5:1:3and the centre of the coinh
Citi Tornai 1:5:1:3


The earliest dated British coin 1513?. Struck in the name of an English monarch Henry 8. The Tournai Groat (gros or 4d) struck subsequent to the capture of the town in September 1513 from France. It remained under English control until October 1518 when Tournai was returned to France on the payment of 600'000 crowns. The earliest dated English coin was previously considered to be the 1547 (MDXLVII) dated pattern shillings of Edward VI

Hitherto the earliest dated English coin was thought to be the 1547 (MDXLVII) pattern shilling of Edward VI. The incomprehensible original is below


Any-New-Ideas?-Changing-British-History-As-It-Is-Wriiten

The KNOWN owners

With Snelling some time prior to 1769
Benjamin Bartlett, collection sold Gerard 25/4/1787
Edward Hodsoll, collection bought by Tyssen in the late 1700s
Samuel Tyssen 3087, Sotheby 12/4/1802. Bought by Young £11/11/- for
Barrè Charles Roberts, collection purchased by the British Museum in 1810.
Sold/Exchanged by the BM after 1915, exact date unknown.
Dr.Carter acquired Baldwins 1950
Glendining 8/7/1970 lot 59 R.Philippi
SNC 5/1990 no.2521 £5'000-
Frank Brady bought Spinks, Sold Auction 290, Spink 209, 6/10/2011

There are a total of 3 known examples with a shield surmounted by an imperial crown with the lis and lion on either side. On the reverse in the centre h with only one of the other type. The style is similar to contemporary issues of French coin in appearance and therefore it was highly likely struck by dies produced by a local engraver and workers and struck in Tournai the captured town who has a long tradition in minting

Geoffrey
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Sap's Avatar
Australia
16836 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2013  11:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Anglo-Gallic coinage series has never been formally considered part of the "British" or "English" series, not by British coin collectors, anyway. The only Anglo-Gallic coins included in the Spink English/British book, for example, are the later pennies from Calais, struck to exactly the same design as English coins only with Calais mintmarks. All other coins struck in and for territories in France owned and occupied by England are usually considered "Territorial" - much the same as coinage struck for occupied Ireland.

So while it might well be the "earliest dated coin in the name of an English monarch", it is not the "earliest dated British coin".
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
New Member
United Kingdom
34 Posts
 Posted 11/02/2013  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Battersea Dogs Home to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a difficult one as I can see both sides of the argument. On the one hand a coin struck in Tournai should not really be classified as English, but on the other hand, British coin collectors pay vast sums for a crowned T marked Henry VIII groat marked with the Tournai name. The only difference appears to be that one is in the style of English coinage and the other in the French style. The Calais coinage is accepted as mentioned above, so there is no reason to reject Tournai on the grounds of it being foreign. Personal preference seems to be the order of the day.
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