Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes. Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors 300,000 items to help build your collection! Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Specializing in Modern Numismatics Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Shop for APMEX Bullion on eBay!








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

The Unvarnished Truth About "Toning" ... My Opinion Fwiw

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 26 / Views: 3,407Next Topic
Page: of 2
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  10:17 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The plain and simple truth is, that "toning" on a silver coin is the first stage of corrosion, as surely as "hay is the first stage of horse manure".

There are many here, more educated then I am on the scientific side of this issue, but as attractive as it can be on a nice original coin, I am left wondering if the process of deterioration can be arrested.

Toning becomes tarnish, tarnish becomes corrosion.

That said, there are times when you get a coin that's been dipped and stripped ... usually from one of these hucksters calling themselves "this or that whatever mint" or "historical society". Most serious collectors will shy away from these offerings, and I try to,but sometimes the price is just too compelling for me to pass up the deal. I picked up a set in a wooden case a couple years ago that contained 10 90 percent silver half dollars. The coins ended up costing just under10 dollars each ... but what had been done to them was a travesty. Sometimes the coins are polished .. but in this case they were just dipped and stripped of any and all patina. My reasoning was that they would return to a more natural appearance in time. Well, I decided that I wouldn't live that long, and decided to accelerate the process.

Unless you are in a position such as the one outlined above, I don't recommend altering a coin's appearance. I am not selling the coins,and if I ever do, the AT will be pointed out. But I learned some things along the way that I thought I could share. Experience is the best teacher. Most are not going to be faced with the need to do this, so for those, I thought it might be entertaining, and maybe even educational.

It's well known that exposure to sulphur dioxide is what causes silver to tarnish, so I needed a way to "make some".
It stinks to high heaven, and you can't do this in your house, especially if you are married.

I went to Walmart pharmacy, and asked them if I could buy sulphur, like you used to get in a chemistry set (if you're an oldster like me), and once I explained what it was I was doing, and they were satisfied that I wasn't manufacturing gun powder, they sold me a small plastic screw top container of "flowers of sulphur" ... just powdered sulphur.

To make the gas, I used an oil filled electric radiator turned up on the highest setting. To keep from simply filling the room with the gas ... which is going to happen anyway ... but to try and contain it and concentrate it, I used a small piece of copper that would span the ribs of the heater, and used a screw top from a half dollar tube as a pedestal to sit the coin on. I used a bakelite ash try. flipped upside down, to capture and concentrate the gas in a small space. Initially I was just setting it on the pedestal, but the going was too slow. The ashtray really made a big difference in the amount of time needed to impart the desired effect to the coins.

I should have taken "before" pictures ... but Ihave found that, in my experience, that usually means there's no "after".

I'll add some pictures of a few of the coins later on tonight. I locked them up in the safe last night, and they're actually in another building right now. My computer is running some kind of background program, and the freezing is annoying, but I needed to get this published before I can restart the computer.

I'm running some non coin related auctions tonight, and will be using the camera, and while I still suck at getting the kind of images that I really need to ... I'll do the best I can to take some pictures to illustrate the results.

Chance
Pillar of the Community
FadeToBlack's Avatar
1751 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  10:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sounds like fun, can't wait to see what you produced and if I can identify it as AT.
New Member
AgIA's Avatar
United States
3 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  10:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add AgIA to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
As a chemist, I have been interested in doing something like this. I am eager to see your results!
Pillar of the Community
kanga's Avatar
United States
5825 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kanga to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
A couple comments on the OP's post.


Quote:
Toning becomes tarnish, tarnish becomes corrosion.


As I understand it "toning" and "tarnish" are pretty much interchangeable terms and not generally considered a negative (unless you're old school like me and prefer blast white).
"Corrosion" on the other hand is uncontrolled toning and is beyond a surface change and into actual damage.


Quote:
It's well known that exposure to sulphur dioxide is what causes silver to tarnish...


Well some sort of elemental sulfur or sulfur compound.
I think the end product is Silver Sulfide.
Moderator
Learn More...
SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:25 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'll be very surprised if you achieve something we'd consider "natural." Not that it's impossible - it isn't - but it usually takes more than one try.
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK ... Here are 4 silver half dollars, all were stripped to stark white yesterday.

Just exposing the coins to the gas isn't really the entire procedure ... and I've done things that collectors will gasp at ... such as, using distilled water, and my fingers to give the antique appearance. Without that, the coins would simply turn dark overall.

One other note ... The 1919-D walker was not from the set of half dollars. It was purchased separately, from ebay, and had been polished. As hard as it was to do it, I used a rock tumbler, filled with wheat pennies, to remove the polished appearance. 5 minutes in the tumbler probably simulates months of actual "normal" wear. The 1919-D went into the tumbler 3 times before reaching it's current appearance.

Oh yeah ... almost forgot. Before doing any of this, you have to soak the coins in acetone to remove any and all oils and silicone compounds present from polishing compounds. I did not "wipe" the coins following the degreasing, but used compressed air to dry them.

For better or for worse, here is what I ended up with. They are much more pleasing to my eye now. They looked horrible stripped bone white, especially the bust and Seated coins.

Chance

The-Unvarnished-Truth-About-

The-Unvarnished-Truth-About-
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I spent about 10 hours with these 4 coins. Remember, I have a little less than 30 dollars in the1824, 1843-O, and the Columbian half. The Walker, I paid 45 dollars for.

Chance
Edited by Chancellor Sutler
11/09/2013 11:36 pm
Pillar of the Community
FadeToBlack's Avatar
1751 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FadeToBlack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It don't look too bad.
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/09/2013  11:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These were taken with the camera set on full on "auto" It simply won't allow me to adjust the aperture size. I'm about ready to pull my hair out over that .. except for the fact that "there ain't much left" as it is ...

They actually look even better "in hand" ... but I'm not as smart as my camera is.

Chance
Pillar of the Community
unholyroller's Avatar
United States
1903 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  12:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add unholyroller to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Question....after you handle them for a short bit ( starting with clean hands ), do your hands smell of sulphur? There are other areas of collecting that I partake in, and a diagnostic way to tell if something has been recently chemically refinished is distinct and tell tale odors...which I am guessing if you sniff those coins...they smell pretty strong
Edited by unholyroller
11/10/2013 12:07 am
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The final step ... once again rinsing with acetone, removes any odor. My sense of smell isn't the best, so while somebody else may be able to smell it...I can't.

Chance
Pillar of the Community
dsfreeworld's Avatar
United States
4337 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  12:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dsfreeworld to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
those coins would reek horribly IMO based on the described technique

i will not be completely sold on any results until I see before and after of the same coin(s)

please keep us informed of your next run and show before and afters

Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  12:48 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Here's the set, photographed when I first bought it 2 years ago. The image was still on my imgur account.


Chance

The-Unvarnished-Truth-About-

The-Unvarnished-Truth-About-

Pillar of the Community
philadelphian's Avatar
United States
3253 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  01:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting, with this controlled process, how differently the coins tone. Which is what I expected, though I'm still not clear on why these 90% silver coins of different eras react so differently. I can always seem to pick out a Trade dollar in a pile of Morgans at a distance.
Pillar of the Community
Chancellor Sutler's Avatar
United States
1372 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  01:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Chancellor Sutler to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I asked the Mrs if they smelled ... she says "no".

Chance
Pillar of the Community
nalaberong's Avatar
Canada
2805 Posts
 Posted 11/10/2013  02:58 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add nalaberong to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Toning becomes tarnish, tarnish becomes corrosion.

OK... chemistry is a bit more complicated than that, as far as I remember.

Many metals do react with chemicals found in the air. Copper reacts with oxygen, iron reacts with water vapor (and your hands - that musty "iron" smell is actually a certain oil present on your fingers reacting with the metal to produce a volatile compound), silver reacts with sulfur, and gold doesn't react with much unless you try really hard.

However, the characteristics of the compound produced on the coin's surface are all completely different!!

Quick, dig into your world coin grab-bag and pull out an aluminum coin. It's toned! It is coated with a layer of aluminum oxide. But unlike iron oxide, aluminum oxide is strong, transparent, and does not flake off. It still reacts with oxygen enough so that native aluminum is a geological ultra-rarity (flakes of the stuff have been found in extremely oxygen-hungry soil), but this will not evolve into pitting.

Meanwhile, iron and zinc are only used for very low-value coins or in military emergencies for good reason - they react with almost anything, and turn black and pitted.

As for silver... I am pretty sure that silver sulfide will not become corrosion. Most dug silver coins come out of the ground fairly nice... more so for gold. So... don't clean silver coins out of a misguided desire to preserve them indefinitely - even sealing them off in a small container halts the process of toning (sulfur isn't too common in our atmosphere).

Copper will corrode when water and oxygen team up, but without water, I am also fairly sure that copper oxide alone is visible but benign.

So, on an atomic level... a layer of compound is building up on the pure-metal surface. At some point, if the compound is stable, the process will stop, as the reactive metal is completely covered by protective oxide. If the compound is unstable, it will flake off, revealing more metal, causing more reaction. It all comes down to how stable the compound is - rust is not stable, aluminum oxide is very stable. Why do these tiny, thin layers change the colour so much? It's like oil on water - the light is bent by the oil, then reflected off the water, then bent differently by the oil again so it comes back to your eyes differently. Like an oil slick, toning can come in all colours, but in quantity it just turns dark.
  Previous TopicReplies: 26 / Views: 3,407Next Topic
Page: of 2

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.44 seconds to rattle this change. Forums