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 Replies: 28 / Views: 5,296 |
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Valued Member
United States
416 Posts |
Very well said unholyroller.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
So what you are saying is that, in 1995 in Denver a mint worker,who was in charge of overseeing the automated penny production, shut down the entire automated production line , halting the 24 hour a day minting of 13 million daily pennies. Pulled a single (as no other specimen has surfaced in 18 years) specially prepared steel planchet made to the exact dimensions and thickness of a zincoln penny (to fit perfectly in the die cup) and then manually stamped one steel penny in total secrecy. Or snuck this special planchet into the feed hopper to be minted and then searched through 10's of thousands of minted pennies to find his single steel one under no watchful eyes what so ever at the mint, and then pocketed and snuck out his prize  Occam's razor ............. one of Dr Sagans favorite scientific thorems (that he mentions in many of his books) , to paraphrase " all things being considered, the simplest explanation in usually the right one " ................... it was plated with nickel after the fact.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
I shall quote Mr Sagan again..."prove it". Again, we need to deal with facts, not theory. Test the coin for nickel. Let's me use a counter example.... A bunch of Presidential dollars show up with no edge lettering....which is more likely? 1) a mint error that went unnoticed and got into circulation by accident 2) a mint security guard builds a coin cart with a special compartment to smuggle out dollars without edge lettering so he can sell them to a dealer who he has made an agreement with. #2 is the real story P.S. I just wanted to add for the OP. Do an internet search for a coin dealer/pawn shop/ precious metal smelter in your area with an xray fluorescence analyzer. They can tell you in a few seconds what the coin surface is made from and it won'tharm the coin. Edited by unholyroller
12/04/2013 12:01 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1053 Posts |
Just a side note: anyone remember "Kbrumley's" 1944 steel penny thread? They have the same avatar.
Just a coincidence I'm sure, I just thought it was interesting.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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Again, we need to deal with facts, not theory. The fact is that the US has not used steel planchets since 1943 so there should be exactly ZERO steel planchets in any US Mint facility. An orphan planchet is almost certainly not going to meet the dimensional specs for a Zincoln planchet and that looks like a perfectly struck coin to me. Quote:A bunch of Presidential dollars show up with no edge lettering....which is more likely? 1) a mint error that went unnoticed and got into circulation by accident 2) a mint security guard builds a coin cart with a special compartment to smuggle out dollars without edge lettering so he can sell them to a dealer who he has made an agreement with. #2 is the real story That may account for some of the edgeless dollars but many of them have been found by roll searchers as well, proving that they were released accidentally as well and I would bet that many more got out legitimately than illegitimately. |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
Bio....I agree with you that some slipped out by accident but... Quote:
That may account for some of the edgeless dollars but many of them have been found by roll searchers as well, proving that they were released accidentally as well and I would bet that many more got out legitimately than illegitimately The man who confessed to the crime was paid 2.4 million dollars @ $30-70 per coin...that is a lot of coins! I must make note that unless the history of the "no edge lettering" dollars found roll searching can be shown to be absolutely direct from the mint and not from circulation, finding them roll hunting does not PROVE the means by which they entered circulation. I also want to add...stating that the government hasn't produced steel planchets since the 40s or anything else does nothing at all to prove or disprove what the coin in question is made of. We have to test the facts of this exact coin and let it stand on its own merits regardless of what it is likely or unlikely made of. I bet the person who found the only known example of a 1959 wheat reverse cent was glad they didn't assume it was impossible because there were no other known examples. One-offs do happen. Edited by unholyroller
12/04/2013 11:58 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
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I bet the person who found the only known example of a 1959 wheat reverse cent was glad they didn't assume it was impossible because there were no other known examples. One-offs do happen. During a change over of reverse dies perhaps, like the 2008 W Silver Eagle, but most certainly not to this extent. As for the presidential error coins you exampled, again the simplest explaination. When one or two error coins show up, error at the mint. When thousands and thousands show up, all through the same dealer, the simplest explaination WAS theft at the Mint. Maybe instead of Dr. Sagan, the OP should be reading Melville. Because I really hope he doesn't spend a lot of time and money chasing this " white whale "  Edited by denco7
12/04/2013 11:57 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
My point through all this is that far too many of us pounce on things like this (myself included) and pose "authoritative" answers based on opinion and not fact. We are all here to learn and teach when able. The one thing we cannot forget through this process is that we don't know everything and we should always start with the facts of the situation. Opinion should be left for when all the facts still dont give a satisfactory answer. Sure...history can teach us the LIKELYHOOD of something being possible or not, but history is not an absolute. Instead of just saying "its junk", "only worth face", "not possible", or any other non-fact based opinion, we should rephrase what we say and state that..."based on my experience I have never seen a 1995 steel cent, and the likelihood of it being steel is extremely remote, but here are some things you should test it for if you want to be absolutely sure.......Please let us know what you find out should you choose to explore the facts of what your coin is made of". By this we all learn, and who knows, maybe one day our forum can claim they helped discover an amazingly rare coin!
Edited by unholyroller
12/04/2013 12:42 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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The man who confessed to the crime was paid 2.4 million dollars @ $30-70 per coin...that is a lot of coins! Yes, it is alot of coins but that does not even account for 1/3 of the estimated mintage of edgeless dollars. IIRC, the estimate for Washington was 150,000+ while several tens of thousands are known for the other presidents. Quote:
I must make note that unless the history of the "no edge lettering" dollars found roll searching can be shown to be absolutely direct from the mint and not from circulation, finding them roll hunting does not PROVE the means by which they entered circulation.
That seems like an intentionally argumentative statement, how else would they enter circulation other than by Fed distribution via the armored carriers? It should be patently obvious that large quantities could not have entered circulation via people paying $75-100 for an error on the secondary market  Quote:
I bet the person who found the only known example of a 1959 wheat reverse cent was glad they didn't assume it was impossible because there were no other known examples. It also says alot that no TPG wants to touch it with a ten foot pole precisely because many suspect it to be a very clever counterfeit. The Secret Service has given it the OK but it has been rejected by all TPGs that have examined it so it is currently raw and uncertified. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2543 Posts |
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Yes, it is alot of coins but that does not even account for 1/3 of the estimated mintage of edgeless dollars. IIRC, the estimate for Washington was 150,000+ while several tens of thousands are known for the other presidents. Not to get off-topic or, with apologies, to hijack the OP's thread, but what is your source for these numbers? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1903 Posts |
I think I have spoken my mind rather clearly as to how I feel as a community we should conduct ourselves particularly with new members in separating fact from speculation...but I will make one last comment in these regards as it is the only thing left I feel I may not have been clear upon. The term "proves" or "proof" are absolute terms. Proof is based on measured facts and not speculation. We should be more careful when we say we have "proof" when what is said is meer speculation. We can be 99% sure of something, but it still doesn't pass the test of proof.
I hope none of what I have said has ruffled anyone's feathers...it was not my intent. I just hope that we as a community can hold ourselves to a high standard when opening peoples eyes to the world of numismatics and do it in a way where everyone benefits from the process. Sorry if I came across as rigid, but to me the exploration of oddball coins/errors is far more a science than an art when compared to most other aspects of numismatics.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
12437 Posts |
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what is your source for these numbers?
Mintage estimates were published in Numsimatic News several years ago(and probably in Coin World and other publications as well), roughly 125,000 on the low side to 200,000 on the high side for Presidential dollars with the vast majority being Washingtons. Edited by biokemist6
12/04/2013 2:54 pm
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Replies: 28 / Views: 5,296 |
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Posted 12/03/2013 10:35 pm
