Should Properly Described Counterfeits Be Allowed On Ebay?

Poll Question
Those of you who know me also know I am a serious collector of Contemporary Circulating Counterfeit Mexican coins. You may also know that I am an EMR for ebay and I review auctions reported for rules violations. In my capacity as an EMR I vote as required following the present ebay rules.

The rules of ebay provide for the removal of items because they either violate the law or one of their policies.

The laws that are typically seen as applying to coins are those dealing with Fraud, Counterfeiting and Consumer Protection.

The policies of ebay at times align with the law and at other times exceed the letter of the law. I am exploring that precise area of policy in this poll and if it helps or hurts collectors.

Policies break down into several major categories - the one most critical in this poll is obviously prohibited or restricted items.

This is the ebay policy statement in regard to prohibited or restricted items (emphasis added).





This policy at present prohibits all COUNTERFEIT and all REPLICA coins. That is clear and simple but actual enforcement of this policy presents serious problems to collectors like myself and the interpretation of what to include or not to include in those categories is at times vague and subject to interpretation.

There are several types of coins that this simplified guideline does not cover:

Restrikes (Authorized by the original or successor entities) - Such as Maria Theresa Talers are sometimes reported as fraud (Improper description - not made in 1780).

Restrikes (Not authorized by the original or successor entities) - Such as MTT's made in Birmingham, England during WWII (fraud as unauthorized).

Restrikes (copies) made for tourists. - Such as the famous 1793 Mexican 8 Reales cast with the word REPLICA added into the legend. (Are all Tourist copies replicas?)

Restrikes (copies) made for museums and collectors - Electro-types or actual authorized restrikes that meet specifications - Such as the 1804 Bust Dollar.

Restrikes (counterfeits) made with no authority - The 1913 V nickel - the 1804 cent "restrike" and others.

Fantasies and Patterns - Coins never actually made or monetized for circulation often with no authorization by any government. The Edward VIII crowns, George III Pattern Crowns, the Concept patterns by Daniel Carr or the numerous European Provas.

Another area that apparently was never considered fully by ebay in the formation of their policy is that the term Counterfeit has more than one meaning. Within the Numismatic community there are usually two distinctly different meanings based on the reason the coins were made. Circulating Counterfeits were made as money to circulate at face value alongside genuine money. Numismatic Counterfeits were made to deceive coin collectors. Most collectors recognize the two categories but the terminology used is not precise. Numismatists like Bruce Larson have suggested that for clarity different terms should be used by coin collectors. His suggestion is Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits and Numismatic Forgeries. The law on the other hand only recognizes the crime of counterfeiting as referring very specifically to currently monetized coins. The term counterfeiting is not used with reference to Numismatic Forgeries. In the eyes of the law, Numismatic Forgeries of old non monetary coins violate the laws against fraud when sold, if they are improperly described. There is no crime committed at all if the coins are not monetized and are described properly. This means that when you combine the numismatic definition with the legal definition you arrive at essentially three "Counterfeit" classes.

Circulating Counterfeits - Monetized
Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits - Non-monetized
Numismatic Forgeries

The Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits - Non-monetized can be thought of as Former Counterfeit coins. They are no longer - monetized, current or circulating. These are coins that formerly violated the laws prohibiting counterfeit money but which are no longer "counterfeit" because they are no longer money. To be money any item must be Monetized by someone with that power (in the US that is Congress), it must be current and it may or may not be circulating. Most US coins, including most non-current examples made from 1794 to date are still considered to be monetized but many of those coins are no longer circulate as money. In the United States, World Coins that are not monetized or current and coins of countries that are no longer in existence are NOT classified as being in violation of counterfeiting laws. The only laws that are applied are the fraud statutes.

Finally there are the fraudulent auctions. These are covered in the ebay policy above that says coins must "must be accurately described". In practice this concept is difficult to enforce because accuracy is too broad a term. What does accuracy mean? Where do we stop? If a seller says VF and the buyer says F do the EMRs decide? Generally if pictures are clear we try to stay out of these disputes.

However, this group does include at the minimum the following:

Altered - Any coin that has been altered (date or mint changed, leg removed, etc.) is a fraud. The crime is based on misrepresentation for illicit gain.

Numismatic Forgeries - Copies of Numismatic items made only to deceive collectors. The Chinese art copies are the biggest violators.

Coins inserted in forged TPG slabs.

So I am trying to gain a consensus by asking collectors which of the following coins or types of coins do you feel should be allowed on ebay as an exception to the existing policy of NO COUNTERFEITS? If you have any others to include let me know and if there are enough and I will re-do the poll. Thanks.

**moved at the request of the op**

Poll Choices
 No Counterfeits of any kind should be allowed.
 Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits are allowable
 All counterfeits allowable if properly described