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Ignorance And Misinformation - State Department

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ancientcoinguy's Avatar
United States
842 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  10:33 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Well, the ignorant, misinformed, "representatives of the Peoples's interests" (funny joke!) in our Federal Government here in he U.S. has added yet another country to The List. Please forward this to other collectors you know. Our government seems hell-bent on making everything a crime.

http://www.coinworld.com/articles/s...ions-on-bulg
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denco7's Avatar
United States
2543 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Wait........wait........so it is ignorance to help other countries, such as Bulgaria, protect their antiquities and their cultural heritage from theft, pilfering, looting of archaeological digs and profiteers ? Haven't eastern bloc countries had their history looted and sold around the world enough by the Nazis and the fleeing communists ?

Bravo ....... U.S. gov't for caring.
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Masis's Avatar
United Kingdom
946 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  11:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Masis to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a grand gesture, but not much use when Bulgarians can easily travel outside of Bulgaria and ship items, such as coins, from those other countries.

For example here in the UK ebay site there is "Coin-Ancient-World" (now on Forum's NFSL) whose owner is Vesela Vlahova, a Bulgarian.

There are many instances of Bulgarians "setting up shop" outside of Bulgaria to sell antiquities from Bulgaria.

Even on Forum Ancient Coins members auctions there was one seller who gave their address as Vienna, Austria.
I bid and won some of their coins.

When I got them, the mailing address was "Sofia, Bulgaria".

And the seller was Bulgarian.
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ancientcoinguy's Avatar
United States
842 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  11:55 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
^Says some guy who's interest and involvement in this hobby isn't affected by this law at all.

If anyone wanted to change anything the proper way to go about doing it is implementing laws within Bulgarias' borders, by its own government, for it's own people. Then they need to put more than the current 0% effort into enforcing their laws. But really, knowing the extent of corruption in Eastern European countries, this legislation is being requested by the Bulgarian government for more than just "preservation". It may look nice and well-intentioned on paper, but this is what is going to happen. Demand for these coins will not go down, so the market will move to correct this. As prices go up, more people are willing to risk breaking the law to try and earn some extra money (who wouldn't blame them?). There are people in the Bulgarian government anxiously awaiting for this to happen, so they can use their power in the government to sell and move large quantities of artifacts themselves. Basically legislation like this does nothing to curb the disbursement of ancient coins. It just serves to take sales away from your common, everyday Bulgarian citizen to the politically connected, wealtheir members of the government. There is ample history to back this up.

In addition, preventing the flow of items such as these accomplishes....what exactly? It does nothing but alienate people from history. These are treasures that should be freely shared and studied by people the world-over and celebrated for the important historical context they show, not restricted, forbidden to own, and hidden away forever. They belong to ALL of us.
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denco7's Avatar
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2543 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  11:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
This is a grand gesture, but not much use when Bulgarians can easily travel outside of Bulgaria and ship items, such as coins, from those other countries.


The U.S. has no control over the sellers, that is up to the other countries. But like Rhino horns, Tiger pelts, Elephant tusks and Scrimshaw, they can do their part by making them illegal to import in bulk.
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biokemist6's Avatar
United States
12437 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  12:12 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add biokemist6 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
protect their antiquities and their cultural heritage from theft, pilfering, looting of archaeological digs and profiteers ?

It is really a stretch to consider Roman and Greek coins that circulated throughout Europe as "Bulgarian cultural heritage". Even coins that are unearthed hundreds or thousands of miles from Bulgaria can now be claimed by Bulgaria and repatriated


Quote:
Bravo ....... U.S. gov't for caring

Kind of like how the US Government cared so much about Odyssey Marine? It is dirty pool by the State Department when they file an amicus brief supporting Spain against a publicly traded US company that found treasure in international waters on a ship of undetermined origin, all as quid pro quo for the return of a stupid painting to the family of a holocaust survivor(and big Democratic donors...). This MOU is just another example of a rogue State Department that cares little about US citizens, including its own diplomats.
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dwayne8625's Avatar
United States
582 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dwayne8625 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
denco7 are comparing coin trade to poaching animals? Coin hunters should report their finds because it could be significant, and it would help prevent these laws. But to say it's the same killing a Tiger for it fur is nonsense.
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ancientcoinguy's Avatar
United States
842 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  1:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ancientcoinguy to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is particularly annoying and painful for me, since I spend most of my collecting focus on coins from Markianopolis (modern day Devnya, Bulgaria)
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carmykle's Avatar
United States
2448 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  2:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add carmykle to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting thread. The only thing I could add is that each time our magnanimous government gets involved, we loose a little bit of our liberty. More and more our hobby is being affected by government policy. The only thing sadder is that none of the major coin clubs and associations are doing anything to combat the encroachment. We obviously need a "NRA" for the numismatic hobby.
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Victor's Avatar
United States
905 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  3:17 pm  Show Profile   Check Victor's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add Victor to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
We obviously need a "NRA" for the numismatic hobby.


Check out the Ancient Coin Collectors Guild (ACCG)and see what they are doing. Their motto is "Preserving our freedom to collect"

http://www.accg.us/home.aspx
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Ancientnoob's Avatar
United States
5155 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  10:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Ancientnoob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just to score all the points made here, I guess I am going to have to hold on to this...

Mithradates VI Struck c. 83 BC (Late Hellenistic Period)
Minted at Odessos, Thrace. (Modern Varna, Bulgaria) a real shame...its really a Phat coin.

Ignorance-And-Misinformation---State-Department
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sel_69l's Avatar
Australia
21788 Posts
 Posted 02/04/2014  11:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sel_69l to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That means BOTH sellers in Bulgaria and buyers in the U.S. are potentially criminals.

That also means if you wish to sell ancient coins out of Bulgaria, they MUST be fake to be legal.
Weird.
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pishpash's Avatar
United Kingdom
3626 Posts
 Posted 02/05/2014  02:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pishpash to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have it on good authority, the US won't ship to the UK either. :(
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 Posted 02/05/2014  11:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add FVRIVS RVFVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Pertaining to the article I well remember when the market was "flooded" by beautiful high quality bronzes coming from the location in question. Coins I was accustomed to paying around $100 apiece for were being sold in large volume by three East Coast sellers for the equivalent of 75% off. Even regular issue 'Romans' were coming out en masse from apparently the same source. I once posted on this forum a very nice Nero sestertius (Balkan mintage) which I 'snagged' for $68 ! Deals like this can make collectors swoon and any chance that the river might dry up makes us worried.
Well you won't find any Nero Sestertii being auctioned off for $68 anymore but the market is still awash with Balkan material. The vast amount of coins can only be explained by a reasonably steady flow of new finds being brought in. Treasure of any sort be it bronze or gold will invite the attention of organized groups for which the Balkan countries are famous for. When they aren't importing narcotics or trafficking in 'little girls' they will move into whatever catches their eye. Buried treasures are a 'no brainer' really. Even if the find is made 'legitimately' by locals somewhere, the possibility that men in BMW's and an armory in the trunk will make these people an offer they can't refuse cannot be considered out off the question. To ignore the price tpaid for 'cheap' coins is to ignore reality and the human condition.
You really want an 'NRA' for collectors ? They already exist and if you collect ancients you probably have some of their 'export'.
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