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 Replies: 13 / Views: 2,097 |
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Valued Member
Canada
245 Posts |
This guy has been trying to sell this really old coin for a while: http://www.ebay.com/itm/905AD-Islam...390764214489But is this legit? I mean a 1100+ years old MS 64 gold coin for less than $2000 and no takers? Or am I missing something here? Is this a re-strike or something? Edited by osmiumblue
02/05/2014 10:33 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2563 Posts |
The cert lookup says its legit
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3184 Posts |
look at ancients.........some are very old but not too expensive
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
IMO the price is too high.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
It may be a brand new high quality die struck fake in good quality gold but for me to say this conclusively, may be doing this piece a great injustice.
I just do not know anywhere near enough about fakes in this series.
All I am really saying is that due diligence should be observed before committing to buy.
The first thing I would check is the record that NGC actually graded it.
Edited by sel_69l
02/06/2014 03:02 am
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
The coin looks legit to me. There are many ancient islamic gold coins available for under $2000, in-fact if you look around you can pick up a nice example for $500. This coin does look a bit over priced if anything however it is in fantastic condition.
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Valued Member
 Canada
245 Posts |
Thanks for all your comments, guys. Yes NGC/PCGS are (or at least in the past, were) often fooled to believe that fakes of even modern coins are legit, so I would take their assessment with a sea of salt when it comes to such old coins. I wonder who/what can be considered as an absolute authority when it comes to assessment of such old coins, but I suspect the references mentioned in the auction listing might be a starting point, eh?
PS. I'm more into Canadian coins, so I don't have a clue when it comes to the pricing of these coins.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2480 Posts |
It's true that sometimes TPGs slab and authenticate ancient coins which turn out to be inauthentic. If you read the fine print, even though they slab a coin as authentic, they do not guarantee authenticity! Generally speaking though, this coin looks OK to me. Such precise numeric grading of ancients is ridiculous though. Here are some similar coins of Al-Muktafi coming up for auction. The first is the same year and the next three are other years. The estimated hammer on each is significantly lower than the ebay coin. All are graded either 'good very fine' or 'extremely fine'. http://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...babb5947347ehttp://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...1ca8adbcbb7bhttp://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...3fc41b5212fchttp://www.coinarchives.com/w/lotvi...f80d4c0ca610Pre-auction estimates are often way off though. You never know. There are numerous similar coins (not of that particular caliph) currently for sale for much less money (check Baldwin's). Here's one graded "MS62" which sold for 471.50 USD, although in 2003. From Heritage Auctions: http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleN...&lotNo=13473There appears to be plenty of these available and in excellent condition. I don't know whether that caliph is less common or more desirable that the seemingly more plentiful coins of the subsequent caliph. Regardless, the ebay coin is very nice but in my opinion overpriced. Edited by ThisIsFun
02/06/2014 08:05 am
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Moderator
Australia
16869 Posts |
PCGS does not grade mediaeval coins, which includes early Islamic such as this, and never has done so. NGC used to, occasionally, just like they used to occasionally slab ancient coins using the Sheldon grading scale, too, for special clients who insisted on treating the mediaevals and ancients along with a big batch of more modern coins. But NGC did not really have the expertise to authenticate or even properly identify such coins; the number of mistakes they made caused them to abandon this practice, and if my reading of NGC's Coins We Grade page is correct, I don't think they slab early Islamics at all any more. Which may partly explain the lack of interest; nobody who seriously collects these coins has any interest in or even understanding of slabbed coins, at all. They won't pay a premium for a slabbed coin, because NGC's promise of ID and authenticity is worthless in such cases. Stephen Album - the "Album" mentioned in the listing is a reference to his published catalogue - is probably the go-to guy in the Western World for Islamic identification and attribution. But he runs a coin dealership and auction house and does not do attributions-for-hire, like David Sear does with ancient coins. As for the authenticity and ID of this particular coin being correct: as far as I can tell, I think so. At least, the date is correct, and the seller has correctly identified something important which NGC omitted to mention: the mint, "Misr" (Egypt). But people who deal in such coins like to be able to examine the coin in detail, including weighing it and examining the edge - things that are impossible to do in a slab. As for and pricing, I'm not seriously following the market, but nice condition Islamic coins can still be had for near-bullion-value. There just isn't the same demand in the West for them as, for example, Byzantine, or English Hammered, or Crusader. Here's one, similar condition, similar type, being offered by a dealer for £450. There's currently about US$175 worth of gold in a dinar and you don't have to look too hard to find some "bullion-grade" (worn or damaged) coins for sale right now for about US$200. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Pillar of the Community
United Kingdom
946 Posts |
Price is high for it. Something around £500 - £700 ($815 - $1,140) is more like it given it is Gold and has been "certified". However I have found ancient Gold coins poor / non sellers on ebay as that site is looked upon as a "bottom-feeder" site and that buying ancient Gold coins is best done on a specialist site such as VCoins or Delcampe. Edited by Masis
02/06/2014 08:59 am
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5155 Posts |
I was told in a phone conversation by NGC some years back that they do not grade....
"Black Sea" coins, due to the large number of great fakes, eluding to they really cant tell a fake from an original.
They do not grade, ancient, native Indian coins. (WS,Guptas or the late Vedic states) (Why?) They will grade "certain" Kushan coins. They do not grade "Huns", cast Chinese, Cast Roman Republic coins, or coins that they cannot immediately ID, or the attribution is truly unknown but assigned to a time and region. I had a number of coins returned as ineligible type. If its a Roman Imperial or a well known Greek they will certainly slab it. If its a unique variation or a coin of which alot of "good" fakes are made, they will not grade it.
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Bedrock of the Community
Australia
21788 Posts |
For an independent test,
XRF testing may help. What you are looking for with XRF is the proportion of trace elements on the SURFACE ONLY of the coin, that would match the profile of trace elements in a genuine contemporary example.
A modern fake would not reflect this profile, even with good quality gold.
The cost of XRF is relatively cheap, and is non destructive.
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Valued Member
Canada
245 Posts |
Wow, thank you guys for all your expert comments and suggestions! I never realized that this forum is so active (as I said, I'm mostly at the Canadian forum). I will now try to consume all these comments :D.
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Valued Member
United States
121 Posts |
Oh btw, the price is down to $1,499 now.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 2,097 |
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Posted 02/05/2014 11:49 pm
