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The Holy Grail? 1888/7? IHC

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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2014  10:35 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
So I put your closeup of the date on your coin alongside a certified 1888/7 Snow-1.
One way dies are identified is by the position of the date in relation to the denticles.
Comparing the two coins, I think the dates start at slightly different positions (see the lines).
Coupled with the fact that important markers such as the rim Cud and weak feather are absent, suggests to me this isn't a 1888/7.
Now I do see that dark spot under the last "8", but is it the 8/7? On the 1888/7 I pictured this is a raised semi-circle of metal.
That's just my conclusion--I'll let others comment.

The-Holy-Grail?-1888/7?-IHC
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llmyr71's Avatar
United States
62 Posts
 Posted 02/17/2014  11:11 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add llmyr71 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, I took a screenshot of the picture that you threw up of my coin and the coin that you pulled off the web and I threw up some lines also. This is what I got.

The-Holy-Grail?-1888/7?-IHC
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vermontensium's Avatar
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16679 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  02:21 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have to agree with DVCollector. I don't see any attributable signs that it is an 1888/7 Snow-1.

I think what we are seeing here is crud under the 8. The Cud in UNITED has to be present on all known examples if I'm not mistaken.
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beaglebailey's Avatar
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716 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add beaglebailey to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Let me start by saying there is at least one example of an 1888/7 IHC (Snow 1) that appears not have a rim Cud at 9 o'clock. However it is a very worn example with the denticles worn smooth. Maybe the Cud is also worn down also. Snow has the example for sale on his website.

That being said I have to agree with the others that your coin is not a Snow 1. The diagnostics are just not there as DV stated. Sorry, I knew you were hoping for the best, but I think the evidence is pretty convincing.

There is one other possibility. The dark spot under the last '8' could be crud as vermontensium stated or it could be a minor repunching. There is a fairly common variety (S5) that has very minor repunching under the bottom loop on the last two '8s,'. The repunching is very difficult to see, especially on the inner '8'. This variety does not carry much of a premium.
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  2:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Let me start by saying there is at least one example of an 1888/7 IHC (Snow 1) that appears not have a rim Cud at 9 o'clock.
I see that one, and I suspect the wear on the denticles has removed the Cud, although I wouldn't be surprised if 'Eagle Eye' Rick Snow could see it. On the other hand, the 8/7 is very clear on that coin.

Here's a PCGS-certified 1888/7 Snow-1 in G-4. At this grade, I'm not sure I could attribute the overdate. There's more wear on the date; I could easily dismiss the 8/7 as a hit on the digit.
But I can still spot the denticles to the date, and the alignment is correct.

The-Holy-Grail?-1888/7?-IHC

And here's a certified VG-8, where the rim Cud is easy to spot, as is the 8/7. No arrows are needed--the diagnostics are that obvious.

The-Holy-Grail?-1888/7?-IHC

One grade higher, a VG-10: the rim Cud is more obvious, but the 8/7 is harder to see--lighting? Again, the date position is exact to the previous examples posted. The weak 8th feather is very evident too.

On any given 1888 IHC, the datapoints add up to either confirm or deny the Snow-1. It's never just one detail; the "big picture" helps collectors locate varieties like this one.
Hopefully these pictures will be useful for study, and who knows...maybe a CCF member will find one!

The-Holy-Grail?-1888/7?-IHC
Edited by DVCollector
02/19/2014 01:12 am
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52Raymo's Avatar
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8516 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  7:03 pm  Show Profile   Check 52Raymo's eBay Listings Bookmark this reply Add 52Raymo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have one exactly like llmyr's and I looked at it forever. I think it was just crud but it sure was in the right spot. I didn't know about checking the date position.
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DVCollector's Avatar
United States
10045 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  7:19 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have also stared at countless 1888's--a few until my eyes nearly fell out of their sockets.
So I've developed a process for looking at this date without losing my sanity--using steps of increasing detail:
1. Do I see something underneath the 8--is it dirt or something else? Then, is the date position correct? If not, it can't be the one.
2. If the date position looks 'about right', then I look for the rim Cud (if the denticles remain).
(The correct date position and rim Cud should eliminate 99.999% of 1888 IHCs--I have yet to find one meeting these criteria.
3. Finally if everything else looks good, I would scrutinize the last 8 very carefully for the 8/7 markers. (At this point, the coin would be in my possesion--I've never gotten this close)

Sorry llmyr71--I cannot see you last picture, so I didn't comment on it.
Edited by DVCollector
02/18/2014 7:19 pm
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philadelphian's Avatar
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3253 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  7:58 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Anybody else think the last 8 is way farther from the bust on the genuine overdate?
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DVCollector's Avatar
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10045 Posts
 Posted 02/18/2014  8:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DVCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Very good observation--the 1888/7 is obviously tilted closer to the denticles--there's always something new to learn.
Edited by DVCollector
02/18/2014 8:15 pm
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