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Sonic Sealing Slabs

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Drsandman2's Avatar
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 Posted 02/23/2014  5:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
So I've been thinking about storing some of my coins in slabs myself, like BCW or CoinWorld. But how to seal them? The TPGs use sonic sealing, as far as I know.

Anyone have any idea how to sonic seal slabs? Someone mentioned Branson sealers, but I have no idea.
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dave700x's Avatar
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 Posted 02/23/2014  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm not sure how successful you would be trying to sonically seal consumer slabs that are not designed to be welded. Plastic components designed to be sonically sealed have a feature referred to as an energy director that is a raised feature on the welding surface that melts during the welding process that becomes the bond. Without this feature you would have to really put the pedal down to create a weld. Usually the ultrasonic horn and booster are tuned to perform a specific weld and if you try to exceed the limit of the performance you will reach an overload failure.
You may want to look up area plastic injection molders that have on-site welding equipment. This would be an outside shot.
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OcalaFlorida's Avatar
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 Posted 02/23/2014  6:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OcalaFlorida to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had just researched this yesterday for myself, I found Ultrasonic Clam Shell Hand Held Sealer are like $400 to 650 you cn find them on amazon/ebay and hobby stores and boxes of 25 Sonic Seal Graded Coin Slabs w/ White Foam Inserts in a coins size tend to be $20-25 or dollar each.


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Sonic-Sealing-Slabs
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Drsandman2's Avatar
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 Posted 02/23/2014  11:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
dave - I totally agree, but I was reading that the BCW slabs can be sealed (I thought somewhere I read these are the same slabs NGC uses?). But I haven't found out how to seal it.

Ocala - I was hoping there was a handheld sealer, like you linked. Are you sure that sealer will work?
Edited by Drsandman2
02/23/2014 11:55 pm
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Drsandman2's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  12:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
After more research, it looks like a Sonitek 840/870 - or Branson 8400/8700 - is optimal. These sealers are a bit more affordable than I expected, although not cheap!



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 Posted 02/24/2014  01:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add OcalaFlorida to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8khJBliZzJs this is someone using it to seal a clamshell I like the one you researched just very bulky I thinking it be cool to fins a solution to bring to a convention to do slabbing onsite in realtime.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  07:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Why do you wish to "seal" them in the first place? TPG's sonic-seal their slabs and the result isn't air-tight. That seems like the only appropriate priority - the average self-slab ( Coin World design in mind) is sound-enough structurally to stay together even if you drop. As far as airtight sealing goes, you're better off accomplishing that on a larger scale - food-safe Ziplock bags FTW!
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BadThad's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  08:49 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add BadThad to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with Dave.

On another note, I don't think the TPG slabs not being airtight has anything to do with the seal but more with the porosity of plastic.
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sonic101's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  09:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add sonic101 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
is it worth the money to do this?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  09:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
On another note, I don't think the TPG slabs not being airtight has anything to do with the seal but more with the porosity of plastic.


Perhaps; I'm under the impression that ultrasonic welding is a spot process rather than a continuous-weld process.
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 Posted 02/24/2014  09:38 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just curious, why do you want to store them in slabs to begin with? Seems like a method that takes up way more space and $$ than simple pvc-free flips that pretty much provide the same level of preservation as far as environment is concerned.

And I agree with BadThad, it's the plastic itself that is the weakness rather than the sealing process. The sealing is indeed a spot process, but the slabs have multiple interlocking layers that basically makes the seams less porous than the comparatively thin front/back of the slab.
Edited by Numismat
02/24/2014 09:41 am
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Drsandman2's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  10:28 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To see how the slabs are sealed, check out this NGC video at around the 3:40 mark: http://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading...x.aspx#video

My assumption is that these NGC slabs are sonic sealed all the way around the slab, where the two halves meet. It is done with a horn large enough to cover the entire slab.

Well, after some more research it seems that the plastic slab itself is gas permeable, even with a hermetic or water tight seal. I read that it is possible to tone coins inside the slab by fogging the slab with gas.

I think the real concern here is humidity, not necessarily air. Could a person drop a Coin World holder in water? I live in a part of the state that is often extremely humid. Summer temps can be in the 100s for weeks, and last year we got 70 inches of rain.

Keep these things in mind: I'm 31 years old and I'm looking to store some of these coins so I can enjoy them for the next 40 years. Also, I have a golden rule: no staples. There are plenty of other options out there for coin collectors. The last thing we need are 4 metal staples surrounding our precious gems - I've seen too many coins get damaged being removed from cardboard flips. Finally, I collect rare and high grade die varieties of the FEC and IHC series. Many of the coins I'm wanting to store are examples worth hundreds, or thousands of dollars each.

The best method I've come up with for storing coins right now is in Safe-Flips with an impulse sealer. However, I don't like this for a couple of reasons.

1. The flips are not durable. They can get wrinkles, dings, nicks, and they scratch VERY easy. I imagine that over 40 years, I'd need to replace the flip several times if I wish to enjoy viewing my coins.

2. The coins move around in the flips. I can't imagine my coins sliding back and forth in their flips for the next 40 years. If you try to seal the coin such that it can't move in the flip, then you are stressing the plastic over the coin in a way that isn't desirable.

3. The flips are just tacky for high end, MS coins. For lower grade coins, I think they are the best option. I couldn't imagine showing off an 1888/7 IHC or 1873 DDO in a flip.

As for the Coin World holders, they now only carry the green inserts - which is a deal breaker for me. The BCW slabs have a color selection, and are advertised as to having the ability to be sonic sealed.
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 Posted 02/24/2014  11:07 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Drsandman2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry for the extra post, didn't see sonic's comment.

As for cost, is it worth it to do this? Well, for the cost of sending 100 coins to PCGS a person could buy a sonic sealer, slabs and inserts, and encase hundreds of coins. So what is it that we are paying PCGS for? Their grading service, right?

There are a couple of other things to consider:

1. Errors: TPGs can get the grade wrong - and with the IHC series this is an extremely rampant problem. This particular series is a strong reason why we have companies like CAC and Rick Snow willing to regrade and sticker coins. A high percentage of IHCs I see in PCGS slabs are not correctly graded. So out of 100 IHCs I send to PCGS for grading, I'll probably want to pop out 20 of those. Wow, now that is a lot of wasted money. In fact, I'd prefer them to slab it and not grade it.

Sending your coin to a TPG is a slight risk. People often don't realize that their coin can be damaged. I read on CC yesterday about a unique MS specimen that was photographed and graded by PCGS as problem free, but upon receipt had a massive rim ding. My personal story is worse. NGC completely destroyed an 1873 DDO Snow-1 of mine. Sure, they paid the full declared value of $1,000 - but that doesn't detract from the fact that they destroyed a piece of important numismatic history. And that can't be fixed.

Unfortunately, for the other guy, his dealer only put a $15 declared value on the PCGS submission form and effectively screwed his customer. So, there can be some trust issues when dropping your coins off at a PCGS dealer.

2. Opportunity cost: How long does it take to send out your coins and get them back from a TPG? The answer is always way too long! This day in age, with digital photography and a very astute numismatic community, collectors are willing to pay top dollar for raw or basement slabbed coins. You can see on ebay, everyday, raw coins auctioning off at certified prices or more - just because the seller is very good at photography (or whizzing).

Of course, I don't want to keep every coin I come across. I want to resell many of them. Being able to buy, properly store, and resell coins immediately upon buying them gives me an extremely liquid inventory. Having to wait weeks for a TPG to return your top quality coins greatly reduces the liquidity of your inventory, and comes at an up-front cost to the dealer that won't be realized for quite some time.

3. Nature of varieties: When sending coins in for attribution, one increases the time it takes to get the coin back from the TPG and the cost of having it slabbed. So for variety collectors, errors and opportunity costs compound. I won't go into PCGS's ability to properly attribute varieties, and which ones they've chosen to recognize.
Edited by Drsandman2
02/24/2014 11:11 am
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srs77's Avatar
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 Posted 02/24/2014  11:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Just curious, why do you want to store them in slabs to begin with? Seems like a method that takes up way more space and $$ than simple pvc-free flips that pretty much provide the same level of preservation as far as environment is concerned.


I store all of my coins in the World Premier Coin Slabs or they're already graded by on of the major TPGs.

You asked why, for me, it's the way I prefer to store my coins. It's not like I have a million coins and storing them in this fashion makes me feel a little safer that my (prone to mistakes) hands won't cause unnecessary damage.

They're also uniform in size and that makes storing them easy.

Bottom line, it's just a preference for me and it's what makes the world go round. No right or wrong answer her, just my preference. For those that prefer the flips or 2x2s, if that works best for you than I say go for it.

Only important thing is to provide a safe way to secure the coins for the future, whatever method you choose.

BTW, my storage solution for storing the actual slabs I've posted before but here it is again...

Sonic-Sealing-Slabs

Sonic-Sealing-Slabs

The cabinet can hold 60 coins in slabs per drawer. That means I can store 660 coins in this cabinet alone.

Again, this is just the solution that works for me, it may not work for the next guy or gal.
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 Posted 02/24/2014  12:17 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Numismat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
That's a nice and neat storage method I'll admit. My collection is probably between 700 and 800 coins and fits in three albums which all fit in one large drawer. Your method is ideal for sure, but in a small NYC apartment, that luxury is just not possible :)
I use BCW flips and put them in 20 coins sheets. Everything from $10 coins to $5,000 coins the same way. Been that way for years and they have stayed well preserved.
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 Posted 02/24/2014  12:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Your solution is awesome as well. Small NYC apartment would be difficult for added furniture for sure. That was my point though. I believe collectors work with whatever solution works best for them. No matter what it's still fun to pull the coins out to look at them though right? :)
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