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 Replies: 23 / Views: 3,141 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1531 Posts |
Please leave all your thoughts about the top TPGs (no one trusts the little guys like INB or NSGA)
I've read a whole bunch of different opinions about pros and cons of TPGs and I'm interested in reading more.
Do you trust the top-dog TPGs like PCGS and NGC? If not, would you consider sending your coin to be encapsulated with just a GENUINE mark on the paper simply to preserve the coin instead of a grade? Why or why not? Have you had any bad experiences or noticed any wrong graded coins? (If so, please post a picture of a PCGS or NGC coin that's not quite right)
Do you think TPGs have made coin collecting any more fun or no? Any more easy!
Personally, I love TPGs and have sent a few to be graded by PCGS in the past. By my standards, they have rarely come back overgraded or undergraded by more than a point.
Thanks!
Edited by Cruisinfusion
03/26/2014 8:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
Don't forget about ICCS
Feel free to call me Will.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5206 Posts |
The only coins I have ever submitted were to ANACS and most were coins I found roll hunting and have been happy with the results. I have purchased coins in all top 3 holders and most have been MS and look correctly graded to me. You may want to move this to the TPG forum though. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4911 Posts |
I like ICCS and think they are very conservative and trustworthy they also have a great price and no extra fees for variety identifications and stuff like that. Plus they're close to home, the only thing I'm not extremely fond of is their packaging buti can live with it.
Feel free to call me Will.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1531 Posts |
Wow, never heard of them, the dollarman!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1511 Posts |
I actually prefer coins raw.. And out of the top 3 US graders I absolutely prefer ANACS... But I've definitely seen coins graded wrong in all three of their slabs... I don't have time to search for pics at the moment but do a quick search on here and you'll find some, they're all only human and definitely make mistakes, especially with how subjective grading is.
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New Member
United States
35 Posts |
ICCS, isn't that the TPG that doesn't have a website? LOL |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
4944 Posts |
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Don't forget about ICCS ICCS isn't considered a top tier TPG for American coins. Great for Canadian coins though. |
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Valued Member
United States
498 Posts |
Just looked this up on heritage Auctions 1973 d ms67 rd Lincoln. 3 sold as follows. June 23, 2013 anacs slab $30.00 . Sept 25, 2013 pcgs $3,818.75. Feb 27th, 2014 pcgs $4,993.75, if I'm sending out a coin or buying a coin I'm going with pcgs. Now if your good and I mean really good think of the possibilities of buying high grade anacs and ngc coins that crossover. From the mouth of PCGS coins slabbed by NGC in the last 6 mos to a year have a 50% chance of crossover. Before that about 5%. NGC makes many mistakes but their grading standards have apparently been brought up closer to PCGS. Hope this is helpful.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1511 Posts |
Quote:
Just looked this up on heritage Auctions 1973 d ms67 rd Lincoln. 3 sold as follows. June 23, 2013 anacs slab $30.00 . Sept 25, 2013 PCGS $3,818.75. Feb 27th, 2014 PCGS $4,993.75, if I'm sending out a coin or buying a coin I'm going with PCGS. Now if your good and I mean really good think of the possibilities of buying high grade anacs and ngc coins that crossover. From the mouth of PCGS coins slabbed by NGC in the last 6 mos to a year have a 50% chance of crossover. Before that about 5%. NGC makes many mistakes but their grading standards have apparently been brought up closer to PCGS. Hope this is helpful. If you look at both the PCGS and ANACS coin the ANACS cent looks FAR better.... The only reason someone paid that much was most definitely because they're working on a PCGS top pop reg set. But if you look at the pics side by side the PCGS has some contacts in the obverse lower right field... While the ANACS coin is near flawless, I would have chosen that ANACS coin over the other every day of the week, and not because of the slab it's in but rather for the coin itself. I mean no offense and to each his own... And I definitely do admit that PCGS coins command a premium, but that's only because people making it that way, aka drinking the koolaid. And a good hypothesis on why these high grade/top pop coins don't cross is because these companies are making it that way... They control the populations and manipulate it. There is no way that PCGS is better at grading than the other top two, that's absolutely ridiculous.. Both ANACS and NGC have some of the biggest names and most trained eyes in the industry working for them as well. And not to mention that those particular coins are an extreme oddity in how that went... While PCGS does occasionally, or even often, command a slight premium that was an insane and very rare difference.... I prefer raw... But have no problem buying coins in any of the top three slabs, but I buy the coin in the holder, not the name/grade on it.... Koolaid Koolaid Koolaid |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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And I definitely do admit that PCGS coins command a premium, but that's only because people making it that way, aka drinking the koolaid. Not really people always say that but its been this way for years. PCGS does a better job and is harder on high end coins thats why their populations are lower. Its not because theyre making false markets, false markets collapse and would have by now. The ANACS staff that initially built their reputation that was valued by the market is long gone. In 09 the company was sold again where the ICG staff at the time became the new ANACS staff. ANACS is better at VAMing because of one man but thats it. Quote:
And a good hypothesis on why these high grade/top pop coins don't cross is because these companies are making it that way... They control the populations and manipulate it. Most dont cross because they dont meet their standard. Having the best coins in their holders only increases the value of their brand. The best ones will cross over and have in the past, its the boarderline and lower end ones they reject. Their top pop is consistently lower basically across the board though. Crossovers are already at a disadvantage anyway and held to a higher standard being viewed through the plastic. They arent going to risk it on a coin that they think is "good enough" to crack it and say opps now we have to pay the submitter. It has to be one that slaps you in the face for top pop coins. If submitted raw the percentage would probably be a little higher getting to judge the coin without the plastic. Quote:
There is no way that PCGS is better at grading than the other top two, that's absolutely ridiculous.. PCGS is one of the top two with NGC. The gap has been growing wider between those two and ANACS for a while now to the point where ANACS has become a second tier service to PCGS and NGC. Theres a reason why all the best coins end up at one of those two services. If they were equals that wouldnt be the case. Registry sets had an effect on the top coins most collectors could never dream of buying but theres a lot more than that. The premium difference runs down into levels most collectors can buy at and certainly wouldnt be affected by trying to build top tier registry sets. If it was just the registry sets you would only see the difference at the top of the spectrum but it affects far more than that. Regardless of what anyone thinks it should be the premium difference is there and its real and unlikely to change at this point especially on moderns where ANACS graded moderns have basically no value by comparison except on HSN. Look across ebay all series all grades ANACS coins dont command anywhere close to the same prices which is why you see very few of them and no one really bothering to submit them. NGC I have no complaints about except I dont like the white holder and like the look of their black one better. ANACS on the other hand ruined the one valuable coin I sent them in a test case and I have no respect for other than their VAMing ability. Ill take a PCGS or NGC Morgan any day though and send it off to the VAM stickering service if they dont do it over the ANACS one though. |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
To answer the OP question though TPGs are great for collectors in my opinion. They provide a way for new collectors/collectors getting into a new series to buy coins with confidence that a dealer isn't just blowing smoke up their you know what about the quality of the coin. They provide an avenue of protection to help keep people from getting ripped off and buying fakes which is the fastest way to make someone lose interest in coins. Now at least theres an option for a safer buying experience while someone learns if they choose to take advantage of that option.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3453 Posts |
I preface this with I prefer raw coins. Do I trust PCGS and NGC? Yes but I also realize the volumes they are grading increase the number of boo-boos. I have seen coins in the wrong holders to just plain wrong (a dateless 1917 SLQ authenticated as a 1916 SLQ). I would imagine the percentage is low but this being a numbers game means that the more they slab, the higher the number of problem holders will be (even if the error percentage stays the same). I make sure I look at the coin on its own merits. Would I consider sending a coin to be encapsulated? No, unless the slabbing was for resale and increased the value enough to justify it. If I feel the need for an opinion on authentication on a coin, I would post the picture of it in its holder here first and then buy it. Do I think the TPGs have made coin collecting more fun? Not really. I think they encourage the speculators by giving them the "confidence" to buy sight unseen. While this may have helped sustain the market, it has added another layer of greed that I do not care for. Have I used a TPG? Yes, once. One of the coins received a "tooled" details grade. I could not see the tooling, three dealers I took it to could not see the tooling and CCF could not see the tooling. A good experience that taught me I do not want to be in the submission game. Bottom line, educate yourself and buy the coin (not the slab).  Edit: Interesting take on your last comment basebal21. I guess I am getting a little sour in my old age!  Edited by CoinsKelly
03/27/2014 7:13 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1511 Posts |
Sorry to hear you had a bad experience with ANACS. If you don't mind sharing, how did they ruin your coin? If I'm not mistaken I recall a post on here where PCGS ruined a very high value coin as well. They're all human and make mistakes though I guess. And yes, ANACS was sold off a while back... I'm actually partial to the old small white holders, I'd choose them over any slab out today. I'm not a fan of the new, yellow ANACS slabs....at all... If I were buying based the slabs alone the new PCGS slabs look the best but as I mentioned I couldn't care less about what plastic the coin is housed in, there's a very good chance it's getting cracked out anyways. I'm not trying to start any arguments here, I really don't care what or which company people choose to buy... But respectfully I disagree when it comes to the other two being better at grading.... ANACS holds coins to the same standards as the others do (or maybe I should say "should") and scrutinize/examine them just as well/thoroughly. But if PCGS is "being harder" on high end coins then they arnt going by the accepted Sheldon "standard" (or whatever) therefore they are creating a false market. You keep referring to "their standard".... Which again isn't right at all, given the set "grading scales" by the Coin World there's only one standard, creating their own is manipulating the grading process we've all learned and accepted. Their should be ONE standard that they all follow regardless if it's a high end coin or not. Being "tougher" on a high end coin makes absolutely zero sense to me and sounds like a direct attempt to manipulate the pops. "Well... Because this is a rare, high end coin let's grade it tougher than we would this common VF" Or "well this coin looks like a textbook MS-68, but because it's rare we'll hold it to a different standard and give it a 67".... How the heck does that make any sense at all?.... They should all be graded equally and held to the same standards regardless of rarity or grade. Just doesn't make the slightest sense to me and directly seems as if they're "tougher" on those high end coins to keep the pops down. And I agree with you in that I don't see the premium thing changing anytime soon, but more so because people allow it and will continue to allow it to happen instead of ditching the koolaid, lol. But that's great for me because I'll just keep picking up amazing deals on "inferior" ANACS coins, lol. (Though again I still prefer raw) but there's just no way or pay more for a coin I one slab opposed to another As far as moderns go I cannot comment as I have no idea.... The only common coins I have sure arnt graded, lol. And we're they, there's absolutely no way I'd pay a premium for a certain slab, lol. I do agree that for VAM's (and actually all varieties) that ANACS is the leader, but I'd also add that I consider them tier one for Morgans in general. But I'll agree to disagree because I know some are set in their ways and nothing I say is going to change any opinions, and everyone's definitely untitled to their own. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5825 Posts |
I am VERY pro TPG. Reason? My main collection is a type set. Except for general characteristics I really don't have the knowledge to analyze 100 different issues to ensure the coins are what they appear to be. I depend on the TPG's to give me the key information. In order of importance those elements are: -- authentic (it's the REAL coin) -- original (not cleaned or altered) -- grade |
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Bedrock of the Community
13014 Posts |
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I'm actually partial to the old small white holders The old white holders I have no problem with they did a good job back then overall, they havent continued with that standard though. If those guys were still in charge I suspect their standing would be different. I agree the yellow holders are terrible, the plastic is pretty cheap too. If someone wanted to those would be the ones that could easily be faked but I guess theyve decided its not worth the effort. As far as my coin theres a thread about it in the TPG section. Long story short they treated a coin I sent in someway which stripped some colorful toning off without asking for my permission. Quote:But if PCGS is "being harder" on high end coins then they arnt going by the accepted Sheldon "standard" (or whatever) therefore they are creating a false market. You keep referring to "their standard".... Which again isn't right at all, given the set "grading scales" by the Coin World there's only one standard, creating their own is manipulating the grading process we've all learned and accepted. Their should be ONE standard that they all follow regardless if it's a high end coin or not. Considering eye appeal is part of the grading process to me its impossible to have one standard. Within a company maybe, but they all have small differences of things they dock or like. No one sees eye appeal the same though. Quote:
Being "tougher" on a high end coin makes absolutely zero sense to me and sounds like a direct attempt to manipulate the pops. Its not manipulating pops, but extra scrutiny because at the end of the day their money and reputation is on the line for those. Reputations for TPGs overall are generally built by their work on high end coins. Every time they add a top pop for a 6 or 7 figure coin theyre talking on substantial liability with it as well as their reputation since everyone loves to look at those. Really at that level for a lot of the rare dates its more of a ranking system anyway when you think about it. Take the Half Cent collection just sold, no one was going to change their bids from over a million to under a million if one of them got a 68 instead of a 69 or up their bid if something was a 68 instead of 67. The grades really meaningless at that level other than to say this is the finest one weve ever seen/finest known example at this time. There may be a few sliders or real low end coins that may have a technical argument for a top pop grade, but those coins will get rejected from becoming 6 and 7 figure coins. The ones that get added are the solid and upper end coins for the grade. If they add a slider to the pop and everyone hates it and its hurting them they have to buy it back and make it quietly down grade, thats not a good risk to take and really cheapens those extraordinary examples at the upper end anyway. They do add coins to their top pops when its worthy, but its definitely going to be picked over more than a mid grade coin and there wont be borderline ones in the top pops. Take your overdate quarter you picked off ebay not to long ago as an example. I would bet money you spent more time on that than you would picking out a mint set. Quote:
And I agree with you in that I don't see the premium thing changing anytime soon, but more so because people allow it and will continue to allow it to happen instead of ditching the koolaid I mean we see arguments like this made a lot in terms of values of coins, special labels come to mind as another example. When years go by and nothing changes theres more to than just people getting tricked. With the exception of morgans the current ANACS is thriving more off the reputation built before them than the work theyre currently doing. Had they not bought the ANACS name they would have likely rode off into the sunset by now and likely wouldnt have been able to get their Morgan guy. Its not the first time a company was sold and the new product didnt live up to the previous reputation and it wont be the last time. |
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Replies: 23 / Views: 3,141 |
Posted 03/26/2014 9:01 pm
