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 Replies: 16 / Views: 3,433 |
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Valued Member
United States
259 Posts |
I bought the pictured 1908-S on ebay as a raw coin. From the scan provided (I am unable to get a photo this close), the coin looks pretty normal except perhaps for somewhat suspicious color. To the unaided eye, the coin has a lot of luster though most of it is not cartwheel luster. So the coin is much brighter in hand. Under 7X light magnification (using an ATmax led magnifier), if the coin is tilted just so there are a large number of diagonally cross-hatched hair lines visible in the field in front of the Indian's face. This is also true of the cheek and jaw line. The color of the coin in hand is distinctly the "red-copper" shade we associate with pieces graded "RD" (much brighter shade than in the picture), with shimmering devices that include a hint of pastel green. I'm convinced the coin has been cleaned- either with a cloth, or a very, very fine brush (the hairlines are not visible without magnification). From a grading perspective, this coin is clearly UNC details without any signs of wear. Net/net I paid $204, which is about an EF-45 price. Unc pieces start at about $300 for a 60. My question for the group is, when a coin has been cleaned in some fashion but with relatively pleasing (if not gradable) results, how much does that downgrade the value of the coin? How do you calculate that ratio, or do you simply avoid any/all cleaned pieces? Thanks and all the best, Ed  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
797 Posts |
Great details. But the color does look off. I'd say it was cleaned, perhaps wizzed.
A Coin in that grade, with luster showing, should have some cartwheel effect going on...The hairlines would concern me
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Valued Member
 United States
259 Posts |
Thanks for your thoughts CG. Definitely not whizzed- the lines are very, very fine, and are very shallow into the surface. In my experience whizzed coins have short marks that are deeper into the surface since the brush contacts the coin intensively, but only for a small portion of it's arc of motion. Hairlines tend to be longer since cloth (or a fine brush) is applied in a sweeping motion. Whizzing is also usually visible without magnification. I can only see the hairlines on this coin under magnification.
What method do you use (if any) to ascertain the value of a very gently cleaned coin you are considering?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
716 Posts |
If the coin is cleaned, then it comes down to whether you are happy with the coin in spite of the fact that it is cleaned or you are unhappy now that you know the coin is cleaned. You probably got the coin at a good price because it has problems. I personally would return the coin.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2373 Posts |
Your market place, should you ever want to upgrade becomes significantly smaller with a problem coin. You can circulate the coin down to the extra fine level to get rid of the lines and reevaluate at that level. If that doesn't fit at the new level I would rethink keeping it. nlp
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
Not sure if cleaned recently or a long time ago. Note the wear on the hair yet hardly no dirt inside any of the letters or numbers. Yet there does appear to be some dirt in and around the date. A cleaning would have removed that too. Would like to see the reverse side too. Basically around the MS-60 price range is what you paid. Yet considering they don't make those anymore, or shouldn't, I'd say keep and put in an album. That is what I'd do.
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Valued Member
United States
259 Posts |
I've attached a scan of the reverse. I cannot find any hair lines on the reverse. The hair curls look a bit better in hand. Given the lack of wear on most of the feathers and fullness of the cheek, I attribute the somewhat reduced detail on the hair curls to strike. For this as a raw coin, I have $300 in my spreadsheet as the trends price for MS60 and $175 for XF40. As I absorb the commentary so far, I am leaning towards returning it.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
595 Posts |
Of course I can't see anything in the photos, but is it possible that you are seeing some polishing lines from the die?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1795 Posts |
I usually avoid cleaned coins but I have bought professionally cleaned (PCGS graded coins) until I could get better. The coin doesn't look bad and if your happy with it then so be it. Thats really all that counts. As far as re-sale that must be considered and most certainly will be by the buyer.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
477 Posts |
Are the hairlines definitely on the coin or the holder? You could try messing around with the contrast to maybe give a better visual of the hairlines.
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Valued Member
United States
259 Posts |
Susuman, I thought of that but frankly I am not sure I have the skills to know if the lines are raised or impressed. I examined the coin with a lighted microscope at work and I believe I got the mag to about 20x. At that mag, I could not tell if the lines were raised or impressed. And even at 20x, the lines are extremely fine and the coin has to be tilted to see them.
The lines are cross hatched in the field in front if the Indian's face. Is that pattern of polishing typical for die polishing? The other issue in that assessment is whether the luster is cartwheeling or not, and in my opinion it is NOT which makes me think it was cloth-cleaned vs. die polising.
Edited by shermae
03/29/2014 12:25 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
8517 Posts |
Too bad ya can't get some of you're own pics. She has great bones and a real looker but if it bothers you to see hairlines at magnification then you should just send it back cause it will bother you every time you look at it now.
Oregon coin geek.....*** GO BEAVS ! ! ! ***
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Valued Member
United States
259 Posts |
52- I just don't have the equipment and probably skill to capture the hairlines in a photo. You make a great and salient point about whether the coin will bug me or not. It's beautiful in hand but it bugs me knowing it's been "massaged."
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Valued Member
United States
72 Posts |
If it bugs you now, it will bug you more later. My advice is to return it and await a better example. Cross hatched lines are likely not die polish lines.
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Valued Member
United States
331 Posts |
Great looking coin. But like raymo said if all you are going to think about. Is hairlines everytime you see her. You probably won't be happy.
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Valued Member
United States
259 Posts |
Thank you for your confirmation Catbert. Another new nugget of knowledge, greatly appreciated. Hope I can help you sometime.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 3,433 |
Posted 03/28/2014 11:27 am
