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Camera Tech Wars. DSLR-Vs- Mirrorless System Cameras

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austrokiwi's Avatar
2087 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  02:29 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add austrokiwi to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am very new to photography. I only became interested in cameras and lenses because I wanted better photographs of coins. I started out with a flat bed scanner and migrated through point & shoot, DSLR, SLT ( A weird sony version of DSLR) and am now using a mirror-less system camera. I know whenever coins and cameras are discussed the conversation always moves to DSLR's. Its only natural as DSLR's have been the main stay of the photographic industry for years but.....If you check the stats DSLR sales have been dropping for years. The first cut back in the market was when point & shoots were introduced. The next Shrinking moment was when cell phones started to replace point and shoots in the market. This has had some interesting effects on the market. I have read reports suggesting Nikon is in a weak position ( regarding the market and future survival), and surprisingly that companies like Sony( due to their much wider earnings base) are more survivable than either canon or Nikon.
So what am I trying to highlight?

With the decreasing size of the DSLR market there is more competition between the standard players( Nikon and Canon) and there is new competing technology be produced by relative new comers ( Sony etc) I think in a forum like this beginner photographers need to be aware of the tech war that is going on in the market so they are better placed to make decisions about the equipment they buy. The tech war that is currently being waged is between the traditional DSLR and the relative newcomer the Mirror-less system camera. when I say tech war I am meaning competition such as that between Pal- Betamax or Blue ray and what was it's competing system? Currently it seems Canon has decided to stay with DSLRs ( they produced one mirror-less but indications are that canon does not see their future in such technology).

The two competing technologies:

DSLR: Digital Single Lens Reflex: in the dark ages of film photography the first cameras had a problem you had a view finder to look through at at times there was a problem: pictures didn't line up with what was seen through the separate view finder. The solution was the SLR ( Single lens reflex. The camera user looked through the same lens that was to take the picture. This was enabled by introducing a mirror into the light path. When a picture is taken the mirror swings out of the way.

Mirror system camera's: effectively a development from point and shoots. with a digital sensor you don't need a mechanically operated mirror to see the same scene as the lens. You just provide a screen to electronically show what image is on the sensor just before you click the shutter. the difference from a point and shoot is that you can mount different lenses. Effectively a mirror less system camera gets rid of an old technology: the mechanical mirror box.


Initially mirror-less cameras suffered in one area...the electronic view finder wasn't as good as seeing the real image! simple put the display screens just were too noisy/grainy. However in the last 18 months or so electronic view finders are equaling or exceeding the performance of the "real thing".


I don't know which technology will prevail but I do see real advantages for the coin photographer with Mirror-less system cameras. From the middle of last year I had decided I wanted to move to a full frame sensor camera( most DSLRs on the market have a sensor that is smaller than the original 35mm film picture size). As I was deciding what to buy someone on this forum highlighted Sony's new beast, a full frame mirror-less. I jumped at the chance..through this forum I had discovered the advantages of using old lenses ( cost savings and often very good optics). However I also wanted to take non-macro photographs. With DSLRs you can get adapters that allow you to use old lenses but unless its just for macro work those adapters must include an extra lens to enable you to take "normal" (non macro photos) those extra lenses are invariably cheap and the result is you can mount an old lens that has the potential to perform like a $1000 plus modern lens, but it doesn't perform to that level the adapters lens is a sub US$20.00 picture destroying hunk of junk.

Mirror-less system camera, by advantage of design, don't have a mirror box as a result the lens mounting point is much closer to the sensor than has ever been seen in a DSLR. Accordingly the adapters needed to mount old lenses are just tubes "cut to the necessary distance" As a result it is theoretically possible to use any 35mm lens of any make on a Mirror-less system camera.

Mirror-less system Cameras have been around long enough for them to be cheaply available second hand. ( I am not recommending any make). However in this forum I see the most often recommended camera is a 10MP canon(a DSLR that was first produced in 2008) Its a good camera.....but from my experience buying a DSLR will generally lock you into that make for a number of years( as you by lenses for that make it becomes expensive to make a switch to another make). So for any beginners out there do think about the mirror less options you have. The key advantage I see is you can try out different lens makes and later if you wish you could switch to a DSLR.


I have no idea which technology will prevail...but I for one will never go back to what I now regard as antique tehnology: the DSLR.
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timnic44's Avatar
Canada
535 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  04:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add timnic44 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I use Pentax DSLR camera bodies because all pentax lenses old and new mount up. My 30 year old lenses work perfectly on the new body without any adapters. I prefer to use the viewfinder to set up my photos. I mainly shoot landscapes and in bright sunlight the view screen can be difficult to see.
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ford_prefect's Avatar
Australia
90 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  05:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ford_prefect to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Until such time that I need to replace my Canon.
The "Out of Box" Live view shooting outweighs any
perceived benefit a mirror-less system presents.
What comes up on screen, 40D Canon 100mm Canon Macro.
Camera-Tech-Wars.-DSLR-Vs--Mirrorless-System-Cameras

Crop to size.
Camera-Tech-Wars.-DSLR-Vs--Mirrorless-System-Cameras

I'm quite happy with my "Antique".
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  10:33 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
With DSLRs you can get adapters that allow you to use old lenses but unless its just for macro work those adapters must include an extra lens to enable you to take "normal" (non macro photos)


This is news to me.
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United States
4038 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  12:16 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
With DSLRs you can get adapters that allow you to use old lenses but unless its just for macro work those adapters must include an extra lens to enable you to take "normal" (non macro photos)


This is only true for certain brand combinations. The determining factor is the camera "register" distance, ie the distance between the sensor plane and lens mounting plane. If the distance on the camera you want to use lens FROM is longer than the the camera you want to use the lens WITH, then an adapter is possible. Refer to the following link of "Camera Mounts Sorted by Register":

http://www.graphics.cornell.edu/~we...egister.html

From that list, a few numbers of interest are:

Pentax-Q: 9.2mm
Nikon-1: 17mm
C-Mount: 17.5mm
Sony E: 18mm
Micro-4/3: 19.25mm
Leica M39: 28.8mm
Canon FD: 42mm
Minolta MD: 43.72mm
Canon EOS: 44mm
Sony Alpha: 44.6mm
M42 Screw: 45.46mm
Nikon F: 46.5mm
T-Mount: 55mm

As long as the lens you want to use is BELOW the camera you want to install it to on the list above, all's well. As you can see, T-mount was developed specifically to work with most any camera. If you want to use a T-mount lens on a Sony Alpha camera, you need an adapter with 10.4mm extension, and when the lens can properly focus to infinity. Nikon was smart (or maybe dumb, opinions vary) to keep their register distance constant (or shorter as in Nikon-1) on new models. Old Nikon lenses can be used on new Nikon cameras, and indeed on most any camera. Canon was dumb (or maybe smart?) when they went from FD to EOS as they lengthened the register distance, making it impossible to use their FD lenses on EOS cameras. EOS lenses are also shorter than Nikon, so can't be used with a glass-less adapter. M42 lenses can't be used on EOS or Nikon, etc etc.

By getting rid of the mirror, the lens can be moved closer to the sensor, and shorter register distances can be used. This makes the camera smaller and lighter, and to Austrokiwi's point makes it possible to use most any older lens with an adapter. For a long time FD lenses were pretty useless since few digital cameras could use them. The rise of EVIL/MILC cameras in the past few years has made the old FD lenses useful again, and their prices have risen!

I would personally LOVE to use a MILC that has a good software interface and electronic first shutter curtain, but alas no one has made one yet, and when they do, it will no doubt be very expensive. So for now, the venerable Canon Rebel XS from 2008 is still the superior choice for photomacrography, including coins and high magnification variety details. Later TXi give a few more MP and are just as good from software and EFSC perspective, for a bit more $$. Recent discussions on the PM forum are indicating that the later non-Rebel Canons, while indeed having EFSC, still produce some vibration. It seems the XS and TXi models are the unwitting/serendipitous state of the art...



Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at:
http://macrocoins.com
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United States
4038 Posts
 Posted 05/04/2014  12:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Until such time that I need to replace my Canon.
The "Out of Box" Live view shooting outweighs any
perceived benefit a mirror-less system presents.
What comes up on screen, 40D Canon 100mm Canon Macro.


40D and I believe 50D are in the same "state of the art" league as the XS / TXi. There may be a couple others as well. The 60D is known to have vibration, as do the 70D, 5D, 6D, and 7D. It seems only a select group of APS-C models have completely eliminated vibration...
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at:
http://macrocoins.com
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