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1884-P Possible VAM-9c

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JoshHellcat's Avatar
United States
139 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2014  12:26 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JoshHellcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hey guys, this was my first Morgan. I was traveling out of town and had some down time, so I stopped in the LCS. I didn't know hardly anything about them, but after a long talk with the owner (mostly about country music, and a little about coins), he gave me a smokin' good deal on this 1884-p. I noticed all the die cracks right away and really liked it. I think I was finally able to track it down to a VAM-8C. I wanted to see what you guys thought. The only thing that throws me off is a very obvious clash between the right wreath and the left wing. I found no notice of this and it is one of the strongest clashes on the coin. Have a look and see what you guys think.


1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c

And here is the clash I couldn't find anything about.
1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c
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149 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2014  01:18 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add messydesk to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Given the paucity of photos of a VAM 8C, I really can't tell for sure. One thing that gives me pause is the fact that your coin has a double clash, while the one pictured as the 8C plate coin has a single clash. This doesn't mean it's not 8C, but it deserves a closer look. The other clashes are strong, but not in places where they're typically mentioned in the listings.
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JoshHellcat's Avatar
United States
139 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2014  01:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JoshHellcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just noticed another clash as well next to the other wreath. This one was very hard to photograph, but fairly obvious to the eye under 10x magnification. It would appear that this one corresponds to a clash just below the lips on the front. The other unknown clash on the opposite side seems to correspond to the cap vee, but I am not sure.


1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c
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JoshHellcat's Avatar
United States
139 Posts
 Posted 05/07/2014  01:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JoshHellcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I just keep noticing more things. Notice the clash below the lip. I think this goes with the clash in the left wreath on the other side. Now it seems that it is closer to 5a, but without the doubled ear or 18.


1884-P-Possible-VAM-9c
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
23522 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2014  06:40 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
What you're seeing is clashing in the "expected" areas - the one next to the right wreath which you mentioned not finding anything about is what one would expect to be the very first location to see clashing. Oftimes, it's the only place one sees a reverse clash on a Morgan. If clashing appears elsewhere on the reverse, it can be pretty much assumed a clash will show there.

Your coin is definitely not 8B. The neck and n clashes are in the wrong place, and the cracks around the date rule it out. Those cracks also rule out 8D. Unfortunately - as messydesk mentions - there's not enough public information regarding 8C to confirm one way or another. And the 8A description shows a coin which might be one of the other sub-VAMs. And then there's E through H, some of which might be intermediate stages of other VAMs....you could even have what's technically a VAM-8 from a die pair previously unknown to VAMming.

Yours is a heavily-clashed coin, doubled as messydesk mentioned, and these images do a pretty good job of defining whatever VAM/stage it is. But VAM-8 alone could be the work of years for a single researcher, finding and recording specific die pairs, without ever being "definitive" of the VAM. At a reasonable production rate per die, one can expect that at least 50 and probably more individual die pairs were used in 1884-P production - not counting alternate pairings of existing dies - and with only 25 VAMs numbered for the date you can see how very little we actually know about 1884 as of this day.

VAMming is pretty much the poster child for sometimes.
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dave700x's Avatar
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10625 Posts
 Posted 05/09/2014  08:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Is there a dash under the second 8?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 05/09/2014  09:02 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Is there a dash under the second 8?


Even if it is - I looked and thought not - V2 and V11 crack in different locations than this one.
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JoshHellcat's Avatar
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139 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  12:53 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JoshHellcat to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I looked at multiple different angles and could find no dash under the 8. I believe I did a fairly good job at capturing all of the identifiers of this coin. Ssuperdave, if I wanted to pursue researching this particular year/die combo further, where would I go or who would I contact?
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dave700x's Avatar
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10625 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  09:24 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You could post your photos on the VAMworld message board to see if some one recognizes the pups on your Morgan. That die crack on the obverse that extends into the neck area is out of the ordinary and the crack through the date should be like a finger print. I actually stopped at VAM-20 to take a second and third look, it's very close but doesn't appear to be an exact match. Or, you could send the coin to messydesk, aka John Baumgart, at Variety Slabbing Service to attribute your coin. John is one of the VAM gurus over at VAMworld.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  12:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
Or, you could send the coin to messydesk, aka John Baumgart, at Variety Slabbing Service to attribute your coin. John is one of the VAM gurus over at VAMworld.


You'll note he's already posted in this thread.

I'm thinking this needs to go up at VAMworld, as a request for input from members who already own a known 8C. The images here should be sufficient for someone who already knows, to ID the coin.

Fair warning, JoshHellcat, posting images at VAMworld seems difficult for some. It's not, but you have to follow the protocol exactly. Most easily done by uploading your images to the site, and don't forget to name them something unique (I use the initials of my username there - SuperDave - as a prefix for each filename, as in SDxxxx.jpg) so they don't overwrite any existing images.
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dave700x's Avatar
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10625 Posts
 Posted 05/10/2014  3:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dave700x to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
You'll note he's already posted in this thread


Yes, already noted. I read his response the day it was posted. I was really responding to this part of his reply
Quote:
but it deserves a closer look
thinking that the coin in hand my be what is needed to identify the die pairing.
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7TF's Avatar
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 Posted 05/14/2014  05:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 7TF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think John meant it needs a closer look by Leroy Van Allen.
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 Posted 05/14/2014  05:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 7TF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
There seems to be several clashed n VAMs with few photos on the pages. A good die marker needs to be found for all of them to straighten them out.
Edited by 7TF
05/14/2014 06:09 am
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 Posted 05/14/2014  06:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add 7TF to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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