| Author |
 Replies: 9 / Views: 979 |
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
3233 Posts |
This situation happens very often probably in transactions every day and in many series. I'm most familiar with the 3CN series, so I'll provide a recent example.
A very well known dealer (I'll leave his name out as it's not germane to the story, but he is well respected among many collectors) sends my friend an 1885 3CN in XF40 and, of course, as the more expensive business strike. In circulated Proof the coin is probably worth no more than $400. As a real business strike the coin can fetch probably anywhere from $800-$1500++. There's only one book published for 3CN collectors to help determine if it's a business strike...the Allan Gifford 3CN book.
The Gifford book is able to determine which pair of dies was used for the striking, 1885P03/B05 (in his terminology). Now, the trick is to determine if it's a Proof or not. It's too circulated to do the typical observation of the rims and details. There's only one other item that can be truly measured which Gifford notes that he's seen on every Proof he's observed - the reverse is rotated 6 degrees CW. On every business strike he has seen the reverse is rotated 2 degrees CW.
We determine the coin has a 6 degree CW rotation of the reverse. My friend also notes, under high power magnification, what might be the remnants of a wire rim. This cannot be said to be a no-brainer business strike. In fact, I do believe it's a circulated Proof and it has to be sent back. My contention is that the intelligent marketplace will scrutinize the coin just as much and the buyer would be buried in it if they paid for it as a business strike.
The dealer feels if the coin smells and looks like a business strike then it must be one. I know he's not alone. I also know that not every dealer can take the time to be so specialized to understand every idiosyncrasy of coins like this.
Is the dealer wrong for selling this as a business strike...Is this just a case of buyer beware? Is it the responsibility of the buyer to alert the dealer as to what he knows? Too often, this will just anger the dealer (I know, because I've tried) and they will revert to what they think it is based on its "look". And, of course, they can sell it for more (who cares if they bought it wrong).
And, by the way, the services get these coins wrong all the time. Their opinion often is based on looking at the coin for a few seconds and then assigning a grade. Sometimes they're right...sometimes they're wrong.
|
|
|
|
Valued Member
United States
459 Posts |
quote:
A very well known dealer (I'll leave his name out as it's not germane to the story, but he is well respected among many collectors)
I would expect this particular dealer to be open to critiques and should make an effort to buy back the coin PF and label/sell it as such. I would also assume it was honest mistake and oversight. Most reputable dealers would chalk this purchase up as a loss and consider it the cost of doing business. If this particular dealer (or any other respected/responsible dealer) refuses to make the situation right; I would discuss this situation and seek out help in verifying that it is indeed a PF with fellow collectors/preferably the dealer's other customers. If/when the dealer refuses accept his mistake I would out the dealer and tactfully warn other collectors. In my opinion, if she/he refuses to buy back the proof, it probably is not the first time, nor last time the "mistake" has occurred. In my book, if he intended to mislead/deceive buyers, he is no different than the rest of the bottom feeders peddling "Chinese Trade dollars." I would give the dealer the benefit of the doubt until he proofs to you otherwise. When I read this on another board this morning I searched some auction archives and I think about 10% of the 18853cns were questionable at best with my limited knowledge of the series. I think you may have opened an interesting can of worms that has been overlooked with all the focus on counterfeits, 3rd World Slabs, the CAC, "market grading," AT vs. NT, and the rest of the never ending list of black eyes to the hobby. ***Edited by Forum Mom to offset quotation*** |
|
Forum Mom
 United States
5877 Posts |
As a small dealer, I would welcome the information. I would also immediately offer to refund your money and accept the return. It doesn't matter how well respected or large a dealer is, I think integrity is always the most important factor of a transaction.  |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
14454 Posts |
If I were a dealer and find I just can't tell the difference between the proof and business strikes I would stop having those particular coins in stock until I could educate myself enough to tell the difference because a dealer has to make money to stay in business and it wouldn't take but a few mistakes in a situation like this to actually put a small dealer out of business because they are working with such a small profit margin as it is. But all that being said I would definately take the coin back or if the customer proved it to be other than I described it and still wanted to keep the coin I would pay him the difference but like I said I just wouldn't deal in that specific series until I was able to educate myself to where I was comfortable to know the difference when purchasing that particular series
|
|
Valued Member
United States
280 Posts |
Let this also highlight the perils of buying coins sight unseen through the mail. There's no substitute for inpsecting a coin in person before buying it.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
I see this situation as a dual responsibility ,,the Dealer has a responsibility to make sure that He is selling what He is advertising ,, but the Buyer also has a responsibility to know what He is buying before the sale .
If there is a question then arrangements or questions should be made before finalization of the sale ,, The buyer could have asked the dealer to check the rotation prior to purchase, or the buyer could have made arrangements that acceptance was dependant on a final attribution.
I always try and remember that integrity is a two way street,,both parties in a transaction have responsibility.
as far as the buyer being responsible to teach the dealer ,, my opinion is of course there is a responsibility to impart knowledge whenever and where ever the opportunity presents itself ,,if the dealer will accept the information and apply it is altogether another issue.
|
|
Valued Member
United States
144 Posts |
You said the dealer sent it to your friend. Was this a sight-unseen purchase? Or from an Internet picture? I'm wondering how much the transaction depended on the dealer being correct, and how much that matters to people's opinion on the situation.
On one hand would be the dealer's claim, which I think is an implied warranty. The other extreme being: "this is what I'm selling. Examine it, and take it or leave it."
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
3233 Posts |
"This is what I'm selling. Examine it, and take it or leave it"
The dealer virtually said this word for word. Anyone who has had any dealings with him would probably nod their head in agreement. It's par for the course.
My friend was buying it sight unseen based on the dealer's reputation and with a 30-day return privelege. It just sucks when you play the postage game and end up paying expensive postage both ways based on the dealer's word.
Edited by Prethen
08/03/2007 12:57 am
|
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
20753 Posts |
"This is what I'm selling. Examine it, and take it or leave it
The dealer virtually said this word for word. Anyone who has had any dealings with him would probably nod their head in agreement. It's par for the course.
My friend was buying it sight unseen based on the dealer's reputation and with a 30-day return privelege. It just sucks when you play the postage game and end up paying expensive postage both ways based on the dealer's word.
Something is very wrong with the statement of the dealer's reputation being good. Way to many reputations are faked just as much as anything else. I know of very large coin dealer here in Chicago that is SUPPOSED to have a great reputation. Yeah, right. Maybe about 20 years ago. Like I said you can fake a reputation easily. I think more people should include the name of such dealers. Let us all know who to and who not to deal with.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
2443 Posts |
I think that the dealer wasn't trying to scam your friend. I think that it's hard to spot like you said. Dealers can't be an expert on every coin. Good thing he provided a return policy, BUT if I was the dealer, I would have paid your friend back for the shipping charges. He was sold a coin that was misrepresented and he shouldn't pay for the shipping. It's not like if he didn't like the coin or had buyer's remorse and decided to use the alloted time of the return policy. The coin was misrepresented.
|
| |
Replies: 9 / Views: 979 |
|
Posted 08/02/2007 11:55 am
