1869 Saxony Thaler

AU+, no opinion on the surfaces.

AU is a little optimistic. Perhaps the blur on the photo - the high points of the coin are distracting and giving me a wrong impression. XF in my opinion. Cleaned and done quite aggressively too. But... still a nice piece.

I've just added one of mine for comparison. Comparison is always important I feel to understand how much and how deep was the original strike and engraving. I'm still inclined to say XF. There's too much detail in my opinion missing to get an AU grade. But who knows.

An opposing example: there are several Italian coins minted throughout the 20s that were notoriously known for soft reliefs, but which gave the impression of wear to the average collector who would say, no way! this is a VF. When in fact, if you see a fully uncirculated it wouldn't significantly appear different from an XF.

I hope that makes sense - a bit!

There's a big difference between the first lot of photos and these.

It goes to show too, that there's nothing like holding a coin in hand rotating it in natural light and seeing the overall, three-dimensionality to the coin.

The dark toning around the letters, in particular between the G and the V on the obverse. Also down near the bust, to the left of the mint mark the toning finishes abruptly. There's also a lighter patch at the back of his neck. On the reverse the contour of the figures are toned. Areas that are typically difficult to remove toning. Perhaps it was also handled (in hand) a lot. I've been proven wrong several times on cleaning and I'm reluctant to say with conviction. If you're looking for a cleaning, some times you will see it, to have it. Also the opposite applies.

There are some tell tale signs like dull toning, stripped lustre, some of the above mentioned things I pointed out and many others.

Consider age, past cleanings, retoning, the fact that silver coins do tone over time. It can drive you nuts! How important is it to you? Has it compromised the coins significantly? Was the price to quality worth it? In the end what matters are you happy with the coin you have and the price you paid?

If you're over zealous about cleaned coins, I would suggest to consider going toward higher grades. With circulated coins, owing to their "lived" life the cleaned coin is forever lurking behind the corner.