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Replies: 102 / Views: 14,795 |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Update: I just spoke to someone with a D810--the EFCS can be turned on while in LV.  And, this just in--Dxomark's findings on the D810 sensor, compared to the D800 and D810 below: A more detailed summary can be read here.  Dxomark's results on dynamic range 
Edited by DVCollector 07/24/2014 5:35 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Previously, we had discussed "flat picture control" and how it's supposed to control blown-out highlights and dropped shadow detail. Obviously, this pic below isn't of a coin--I'm still getting to that--but its normally easy to blow out polished metal in bright sunlight. This is set to "flat picture control", straight from the camera--no processing in software. I predict it will do really well with coins.  
Edited by DVCollector 07/26/2014 6:56 pm
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
To avoid blown-out highlights you may still need to fiddle with the exposure compensation, as it is easy for the camera to miss specular highlights. It's also tough to see what the jpg software is doing with the RAW file without a comparison with a "neutral" rendering.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
This is just one example of "flat picture control". I took other shots, and the results were similar in terms of highlight/shadow control. At least I bothered to post an example.   One is looking for a different tonal range on a coin, with probably less of a highlight. But straight from the camera, this is excellent. I should clarify the above file was RAW 12 lossless, opened in ACR, then into Photoshop (but I didn't apply any curves) and saved as a jpg sRGB.
Edited by DVCollector 07/26/2014 10:49 pm
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
The image is very nice, but all that "flat picture control" is doing is giving you a different baseline processing for the RAW file. If you do no additional processing, you should get the same output jpg whether you let the camera do the jpg conversion or do it with PS. The picture control parameters used for the shot are saved in the RAW file.
It might be instructive to process the file using other picture control baselines to get a feel for what "flat" really means.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote: If you do no additional processing, you should get the same output jpg whether you let the camera do the jpg conversion or do it with PS. It's similar, but ACR applies some of its own settings before it goes into Photoshop. Regarding baselines, well sure "flat" has a curve applied too. After all, any data coming from the sensor begins as a linear file, then is processed and written to the card. I've worked in photoshop for 20 years, know a lot of boring details, but I prefer to focus on the results.  One more picture from today, testing the limits of image sharpness at 100% when shooting hand-held. For this test, I focused on George Washington's eye from the $1 bill. I take a lot of macros in the field, where hand-held is often advantageous, so I've finessed my technique over the years. I used a Nikkor 105mm micro VR at 1:1.1 magnification. I did not sharpen or do any post-processing other than adjust levels to make each easier to compare. Each capture from 1/80s to 1/640s was the best of three shots. There's been talk on dSLR forums how the D810's massive 36mp resolution amplifies any camera shake and therefore requires higher shutter speeds. However, in my case I think I've nailed focus at 1/250s. If you blow up to full-size, you can see how above ISO 800 the image starts to degrade from noise. Click to see full-size at 100% resolution. 
Edited by DVCollector 07/27/2014 3:10 pm
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
There's a lot of variation in these shots, I assume due to being handheld. Overall the first ISO1250 shot looks best, followed by the ISO800. The rest show a varying degree of CA, either shifted green or red, depending on whether they were OOF high or low. The 105VR has a fair amount of axial/longitudinal CA and it makes minor focus variation very apparent. I'm not sure this sequence proves your point about sensitivity to movement of the large sensor.
I don't really see much noise on the 800 or 1250 shots. The first 1250 is actually quite sharp, while the 2nd one is OOF and this may be mimicking noise.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote: Overall the first ISO1250 shot looks best, followed by the ISO800. The rest show a varying degree of CA, either shifted green or red, depending on whether they were OOF high or low. The only one I might attribute to Chromatic Aberration is the 1/80 since I can see a fringing affect going from cool to warm. However, I think this is due to camera shake affecting sharpness too. As for the other color shifts between pictures, when the contrast was equalized between shots, it also has the effect of ramping up slight color differences due to varying lighting of the scene--and varying amounts of WB I used. CA is otherwise very low on my 105.  I also think it's important here to distinguish between a soft photo due to camera shake and a simply unsharpened 'raw' file at 100%--that changes significantly upon a moderate amount of sharpen in PS. Admittedly, I "pixel-peep" my macros a lot, and know how to recognize the displacement/blur due to shake. Quote: I don't really see much noise on the 800 or 1250 shots. Not much @ ISO 800 (high ISO NR was set to normal), but it's getting obvious @ 1250, especially once the photo gets any sharpening applied--just my prediction. Well, anyway...I feel I contributed a lot of research on the D810 in this thread which I would otherwise keep to myself. I don't expect others to come to the same conclusions as I did, that really only matters to my own work. 
Edited by DVCollector 07/27/2014 12:52 am
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
Agreed, and thanks for your efforts to review it. I do still have questions about whether EFSC/EFCS is active in Live View. This is the one reason I would buy the D810 so would very much like to hear your report on this if you don't mind sharing. The report over on PM forum said it was active only in Mup mode, and that you could assert it in the Live View menu, but that it was not active in Live View. As I've said this is a showstopper for me due to my extensive use of tethered Live View for coin photography. Can you determine if it indeed inactive, or verify that it's active, in Live View? Likely the easiest way to determine if it's active is to go to manual mode, set a long exposure time, and simply listen for the sounds of the first shutter curtain activation in various modes.
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Valued Member
440 Posts |
DVo what's the pricing difference on the 3 cameras listed above?
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
Quote: The report over on PM forum said it was active only in Mup mode, and that you could assert it in the Live View menu, but that it was not active in Live View. D810 manual seems to indicate that you can enable the EFCS in LV. Excepting the manual as proof, the only other way to resolve this question is to test it ourselves. Perhaps this question will be answered by someone rigorously testing the camera in a lab setting, because it will be a while before my setup is ready to capture any difference using EFCS. I totally grasp your interest in the EFCS and how it relates to tethering and ultimately image quality. You take amazing, excellent shots and I can only imagine at the IQ if you can use EFCS w/LV.  For now, I can say that the softer shutter release (in S mode) on the D810 produces noticeably less shake--I think I already see the benefits in hand-held shooting. Quote: DVo what's the pricing difference on the 3 cameras listed above? Only the D810 is currently in production, but the D800E was at the same price--$3296. While some remaining D800E are still for sale, they will cost you the same as a D810--inexplicably. 
Edited by DVCollector 07/27/2014 1:45 pm
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
It should be pretty easy to determine EFSC operation. Reason is that EFSC eliminates the shutter cycling at beginning of the exposure. To induce long exposures, just put the lens cap on so shutter is open for multiple seconds. If you are in Live View, and the shutter is operating normally (non-EFSC), you'll hear it close and then open at beginning of exposure, then close and open again at the end. The mirror may also cycle at the end. If EFSC is active, you will hear nothing at the beginning button press. The first sound you hear will be the shutter closing and then opening at end of exposure.
Since you can turn EFSC on/off in Live View mode, it should be simple to tell the difference by just listening to the camera operation.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
Edited by rmpsrpms 07/27/2014 2:21 pm
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
 This is a well-conceived test that you suggest, and I had initially tried something similar. I set the D810 to LV and shot a slow shutter without EFCS enabled, then I did the same for LV w/EFCS enabled. In both scenarios, I can hear a mechanical sound at the beginning and ending of the exposure--is that the shutter or what?  Then, I enabled EFCS outside of LV and put the camera in Mup mode. Here I got a different result--push the shutter once and the mirror goes up; a second time and the camera beeps, presumably when the exposure begins. Then, at the end of the exposure you hear a louder (mechanical) noise--presumably the shutter closing then the mirror coming down. Now this had me confused, since the manual seems to state otherwise--why "enable" the EFCS if the mech. front curtain shutter is activating too? I'm afraid I don't have an answer, whether intentional on Nikon's part, or some kind of firmware bug that will be addressed, or EFCS simply does not work in LV? I'll ask around and see if somebody can get Nikon to give us an answer--and will post it back to this forum. 
Edited by DVCollector 07/27/2014 4:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
  United States
4038 Posts |
Ahh, it sounds like you are independently confirming what was said over on the PM forum. The mechanical sound at the beginning and end of exposure is the shutter. In Live View, the shutter is open until the shot is taken. It then must close to "extinguish" the sensor pixel photo sites, then open again for the actual exposure, then close at end of exposure, then open again to restart Live View. So you should get two sets of nearly identical sounds. If the mirror also cycles at the end then you'd hear a loud mirror slap sound as well.
For EFSC in Live View, when you press the shutter button, the sensor sites are extinguished electronically, electronically restarted for the exposure, and then the shutter closes to end exposure and re-opens to restart Live View just like non-EFSC.
This seems like a firmware bug but it may be intentional, or perhaps a different sequence to get around Canon or Sony IP in this area.
Contact me for photographic equipment or visit my home page at: http://macrocoins.com
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10045 Posts |
I mulled this problem over in my mind today and I think I solved it! Once I get my mind on something, I leave no stone unturned.  1: Go to Custom Settings menu > Metering/Exposure > EFCS > ON 2: Turn the release mode dial to "Mup" 3. Switch on LV. 4. Hit the "i" button and enable the EFCS as shown on p.42. 5. You will now be able to see the subject, focus and otherwise do everything normally as in LV--or so it appears. 5. Now when the shutter is first activated, the screen first goes dark (no mechanical sound). As you said above, I think this is when the sensor sites get reset. The second time the shutter is depressed, you get a beep (which like above, I believe signals the beginning of the exposure). Then, at the end of the exposure time, you hear the shutter curtain closing and the LV screen appears again. Caveat: I have no idea yet how this process handshakes with tethering software. 
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Replies: 102 / Views: 14,795 |