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Spanish (30 Sueldos) With Yellowish Surface Tint

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BillSnyder's Avatar
778 Posts
 Posted 07/04/2014  08:15 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add BillSnyder to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
The Lissner Collection,

http://www.coinsweekly.com/en/The-h...d=413&type=a

has an 1821 30 Sueldos (lot 921) with the same yellowish tone as my piece (which I posted earlier). I had begun to think that mine might be a counterfeit, but now, seeing another, and in a famous collection, I think maybe not.

Thoughts?



Thanks,
Bill





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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 07/05/2014  03:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, it's not WINGS™® Approved, so doubt exist ...
(OK, kidding :D )
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MightyMikeMIami's Avatar
United States
29 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2014  4:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MightyMikeMIami to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dear MathieuMa,

I'm glad that you mentioned WINGS even if it was intended as sarcastic comment. At least you are aware of WINGS. Clearly the organizers of the Lissner 3000 lot auction believe that WINGS provides a service that is helpful to collectors.

I wish to correct something that you seem to believe. WINGS never authenticates any coin, token or medal. That is the grading services' purview and I suggest that you submit your coin to find out or ask a knowledgeable person. WINGS reviews an already graded coin solely to determine if it is Premium Quality for the assigned grade. Surely you know what that means and its importance both in value and in liquidity. We are a similar to CAC except that they only review US coins, we only review world coins, tokens and medals. Additionally, they will sticker "solid for the grade" and above. We won't sticker solid for the grade. Only PQ.

I am happy to answer any questions that you or any forum member have regarding WINGS.

If you (or anyone) want a coupon for 3 free submissions check us out at www.wingscoins.com.

Thank you
Larry Michelson,
Co-President, WINGS COINS

PS- Just curious. Have you ever looked at any coins that have a WINGS stickers? If so, I would love to hear your opinion, good or bad. If not, then perhaps you should take some time at the next major coin show to see some. Then make your informed opinion. My prediction is that you will come away pleasantly surprised. Take care.
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2014  04:46 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Indeed, my comment was a bit sarcastic as I don't like - at all - slabs (at least for ancient coins - actually, they become a bit more interesting for Greek coins as they use another scale - and can be interesting for high-grade US or modern coins).
I think the TPG did receive a lot of demand, for wider kind of coins, and did accept them without having the proper time to handle them, and the proper knowledge to authenticate or grade them properly. In any case, grading stays subjective even when the process is properly done (else no one would re-submit coins just for the fun of paying the fee...).
Recently, there have been slabs with some added logos (the EPN collection being the last one I saw) for big collections, and in those some special added logos such as your approval (will discuss about that later). It can indeed be nice to have a pedigree on the box, for those ... collecting boxes ;)

To finish, but this is personal : I like (love ?) to handle my coins. I need to check them out using strong lenses whenever I want, and over all, I have to check their edge !
I find slabs interesting as a protection mesure for MS coins - but again here you can just pick a proper storage.
With an added plastic coffin, coins look like what I would do as a baseball card collector : get all the boxes with the proper stuff on them, upgrade, forget about the interesting research that can be done (what's on the box is certified) and so on. That's not my way to collect (and I don't mean the other way is better or worse, it's just not mine).
As for grading, I prefer my eyes than a subjectif rating (you have some MS coins which look bright white and have been clearly dipped at least, while you can have a high AU coin with a nice patina which I'll prefer)
And for authentication - anyway graders don't take time on low-priced coins (under 300USD), and it clearly depends who does the job (the last EPN collection had fakes which were slabbed, the upcoming ha.com auction lists fakes which are slabbed as well ... but at least you have a warranty). For me, it's not worth much and I prefer to deal with a serious dealer if I want some kind of warranty - it's actually worth less than dealing with a specialized serious dealer which knows what he is working on.

So, back to the WINGS sticker :)
I just had this to the grading craze - indeed the Lissner collection is a nice place for amazing coins as he was collecting mostly uncirculated coins in incredible conditions. On that collection, you have everything in plastic coffins ... which I'd find OK for once considering the state of the coin : at least as a protective mesure, and to differentiate the very high grades (for which a picture + description is not enough) so peoples can choose according to their needs.
I've indeed noticed that the WINGS ones were the highest quality coins, which over the numeric grading were visually top coins.
To me (again) - that's just another marketing hype for investors : a collector will choose his coins according to objective criterias and the depth of his pocket. Still, the selected coins are indeed the best ones from the collection and clearly deserve the light being put on them. I'm clearly not in the target as a client, that also explains my reaction to those practices. I don't under-estimate the work involved to check those coins out, re-do the grading and authentication work actually, and do cherry picking (I'd love to work on such coins actually :D )

To show what I think about grading, I'll post 4 coins that I just broke free, graded from ANACS.
I'll come back in a couple of days to put the picture of the slab / grade (the last one is single sided, the other side is not damaged) :
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Edited by MathieuMa
07/30/2014 09:10 am
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Tom Goodheart's Avatar
United Kingdom
856 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2014  07:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Tom Goodheart to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Couple of nice coins there Mathieu!

If the OP doesn't mind, I'd like to continue with the slight detour in topic. I've seen some of Larry's earlier posts and find the WINGS idea.. interesting.

But like Mathieu, I have my reservations. The main one being, that as a collector of 17th century coins, I suspect that if ever I submitted any of my coins for TP grading they would either get a 'details' grade or not get the recognition they might deserve.

That's because it's a specialised area and you kinda need to know what a 'perfect' newly struck coin might look like to assess wear, as opposed to quirks of the strike. These are all hand-struck coins after all and so no two are alike.

Plus part of what I have learned is which coins are easy to pick up in decent condition and which just aren't. This one for example:

Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint

An English shilling, struck around the start of the English Civil War (1640-41).

Would it get a WINGS sticker? (Obviously it would also need slabbing first as all my coins are raw!) I don't know. And really .. would it make me feel differently about it if it did? Probably not.

For me, part of being a collector is learning to recognise a better than average coin when I see one. A numeric grade, or even a WINGS sticker, are someone else's opinion. But I'm the one that has to live with the coin, so for me, the only important thing is do I like this coin?

I guess I therefore find it odd that others want someone else to make that call for them. Though, you know what? I am sometimes tempted to submit a coin and just see what happens. Maybe one day I will!
.
Edited by Tom Goodheart
07/30/2014 07:23 am
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MightyMikeMIami's Avatar
United States
29 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2014  11:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MightyMikeMIami to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank the two of you for taking the time to respond. I really appreciate it. I understand that for people who have the ability to determine for themselves a grade and/or authenticity, such as yourselves, their reluctance to use TPG and services such as ours. Most people do not have that ability (as can easily be seen by over 60 million coins being slabbed in 25 years) and rely solely on the slabs. While this may not be important for you as you collect and acquire, it may be one day when you look to sell since I suppose that you would want as large of an audience that you can gather.

I can't really comment as to what the grading companies do. We can only respond once they do it if we are asked to.

I find it rewarding about the Lissner comments as they apply to WINGS. One correction though. We had nothing to do with having the coins put in plastic. That was a decision solely of the organizers as well as it was their decision to have them reviewed by us. We only received the coins after they were graded. There was absolutely no pressure on us from them to sticker a certain number of coins. Even if they requested that it would not happen. We believe in long term branding in keeping in line with our corporate philosophy of only stickering PQ coins. We feel that if there is a question of whether or not a coin is PQ then our answer is no. I would also like to point out that we only stickered 1 in 5 or about 600 of the 3000 coins. So you can see, we try to be very discriminating.

Tom, in addition to our in-house reviewers we have 6 consultants who specialize in different areas that we engage when necessary. So, when we may not personally know the nuances of different times and mintage processes, one of our consultants will.

I thank you both again. If you are going to the ANA please stop by our booth (Table 422). Not only would I like to meet you but there will also be an exhibit of WINGS stickered coins valued at over $1million that I think you may enjoy viewing.


Take care
Larry Michelson
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 08/02/2014  02:54 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just before I post the answer regarding the grade of the coins above.
Stumbled upon that one : 8 reales listed as Mexico, while it's the only mint this coin cannot come from for sure ... it's one of the first thing you learn when you collect those.
http://coins.ha.com/itm/mexico/worl...1432-61262.s
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 08/06/2014  07:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Now, the answer regarding the grading of the coins posted above.
Believe it or not, they all got the same grade ...
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
Spanish-30-Sueldos-With-Yellowish-Surface-Tint
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MathieuMa's Avatar
France
1591 Posts
 Posted 08/10/2014  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MathieuMa to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MightyMikeMIami, if you are around.
I thought you were only selecting the most premium coins, in high grade.
I stumbled upon those two today - which may have been approved sometime ago (maybe you were less strict) ?

Compared to the other ones I saw, the 8 escudos is not particularly well struck, nor the 8 reales (even if it's from Potosi, which was not the best mint for quality strikes).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1808-PJ-Bol...191281288844
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Colombia-Ch...301273705446
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