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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,988 |
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Valued Member
Australia
55 Posts |
Hi guys, After worrying yesterday about a Penny I bought I came across this merely by accident: http://www.ebay.com/itm?itemId=111418804908It's the purchase of a 1925 Collector Penny in July by the seller of the penny I bought on ebay. It is, to my untrained eye, similar to my genuine coin (the 2nd coin). It shows how hard it is for new collectors now. Could the experienced among you point out how as a noob I can tell these 2 coins apart?   Hasn't happened here as you've told me I have a genuine coin, but as a noob, what's to stop someone buying a Collector Penny (top) polishing the rim, some lettering & other highspots, and maybe using a bit of chemistry to try & offload a Collector Penny as real? This eg has an amusing aside in that it has some nicks in the same location - eg below D in IND, at the peak of the left line in the lone V, & the G in GEORGIVS (heh - what are the chances). Tips on telling the collector coin (top) from the real (bottom) would be most appreciated!! Andy. Edited by andycoinster 09/28/2014 8:12 pm
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
A few have asked me about the back of the Collector coin so I've put it up too. It has an obvious problem - the O's in Commonwealth look wrong - but all the other letters are very good. This can't really be made to look authentic - you'd have to lower the O's somehow. The 2nd shot is of my real 1925 Penny.  
Edited by andycoinster 09/28/2014 11:19 am
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
And last post on my penny buying saga before the penny goes back - pic of the reverse of my real 1925 penny. The rim, lettering, rows etc all glisten - like they were used right until today in transactions. Is this a good thing - do collectors look for this on their pennies? Or do they like a bit more patina, even on the high spots? Cheerio, Andy. 
Edited by andycoinster 09/28/2014 12:29 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3486 Posts |
For what it is worth: A collector who makes an earnest effort to examine coins, both in person and through pictures, develops a talent for spotting coins which "look right" and others which "look wrong." Each coin series will have its own clues. Silver is different from nickel and bronze. Each type of coin will have several 'good' and 'bad' points, such as difference in toning. In the end this effort yields a trained eye which cannot be given to another. Noobs should rely upon the experience of others when possible. The CCF serves this purpose admirably.
Your example of a 'real' penny has THE LOOK! (It looks right.)
Edited by matthewvincent 09/28/2014 12:46 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
The reverse of the fake '25 screams fake. Once you have seen a few real ones you get a feel for what they should and shouldn't look like. Also for George V pennies in general you should look at a few references (Triton.vg is a very good online reference) to see the correct die pairings of Indian/English obverses with the London, Heaton and Calcutta reverses. Also learn about flat and curved lettering as most years only have one or the other.
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Thanks guys.
Mattvincent - do you think you eventually get good enough to never be tricked when buying online? Or do you think, if buying something higher-value, you'd always want to see it in person? Also re the "real penny" what do you think of the high-polish to the raised areas? Does it devalue the coin? Or is it desirable?
Nealeffendi - are you able to tell me a bit more about curved lettering?
Edited by andycoinster 09/28/2014 8:01 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
852 Posts |
The early years all had flat bases to the reverse lettering, the period around 1919-1923 had both and then the lettering was always curved (fishtailed). It is believed to be due to the master dies deteriorating by spreading and can be found in other denominations and in coins from other countries. The forgers often get this wrong and is a handy tool to spot the fakes quickly. As long as you have good images of a penny you can always spot the genuine coin (with experience). Lots of images on ebay are crappy, both due to poor photography skills and due to efforts to intentionally hide dodgy coins (both fake coins and scratched/cleaned coins). Learn to spot the tell tale signs. For the coins themselves: wrong colour, unusual wear, fake toning, wrong letter/numeral shapes,wrong master die pairing and details hidden by unusual grime. Also check out the sellers other coins and feedback history. If the feedback coins include a few of the same coins (Centenary florin,1930 penny and '38 crowns are common) then ask yourself did he find a horde of rare date coins or is he flogging Chinese fakes? Also if any of his coins are fakes and he doesn't mention that (or hides behind the weasel words "I know nothing about coins") then regard all his coins as suspect. Look out for shill bidders, the seller might be trying to make noobs get into a bidding war, also look out for slow shipment (for any suspect transaction start a claim within the allowable time). Best (and safest) thing is to buy from sellers who have impeccable reputations and sellers who you have had good dealing with before. None of us who have made lots of purchases have never made a mistake or never been ripped off. But experience (and knowledge) minimises our risks and maximizes our wins. Nothing like seeing a crappy image from a low feedback seller and spotting a detail of a genuine rare coin that only a very experienced collector would know about. By that method I've picked up dozens of rare coins for next to nothing  . Knowledge is king.
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Knowledge is king - amen! I looked back at the photos of the penny I bought - & yikes... And what do you think of the highly polished edges and lettering on the "real penny"? Is this good or bad? And if the penny didn't have the scratches across the reverse, do you really think it would have been a bad buy?
Anyway my poor little scratched penny is off on its journey back to the seller. I almost kept & framed it as a reminder to always scrutinise, scrutinise, scrutinise - heck I almost miss the little fella :)
Will update when refund is in - then can tick seller off as a man who keeps his word.
Edited by andycoinster 09/28/2014 11:10 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3486 Posts |
"good enough to never be tricked"
Whether online or in person this is the goal, although an elusive one. "high-polish to the raised areas"
I would expect the raised surfaces to tone differently from the protected surfaces. And I do not think that an attempt to 'polish' the raised surfaces would not cause a few stray marks below. Perhaps another clue to the overall 'rightness' of the coin.
In short, when the coin is all the same color, unless in high condition, I suspect foul play.
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Few more days to wait as seller tells me he is away In the meantime - I found the origin of my penny, yay - ebay id: 181469022148It took a bit of searching but I eventually tracked it down - it came to the seller as a lot of three from seller brenton49 ebay id : 181469022148 (original single sale was ended). & 400744338885 (lot of 3 1925 pennies sold to my seller in mid-July). The original photo as pictured when the penny was sold to my seller is below. It is unmistakably the same coin - see mark down shoulder to rim. What's interesting is how much shinier it is in the hand or when I photograph it than it was in the original listing. Cheers, Andy. 
Edited by andycoinster 10/01/2014 7:45 pm
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Same coin? DEFINITELY. And the back: 
Edited by andycoinster 10/01/2014 12:02 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
2830 Posts |
personally, I think that the most obvious flaw in your fake are the numerals.
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Yep, even with my very little knowledge, after looking & looking (and looking) at the two it's the numerals. The nine & the five. I can also see the point re round lettering - you could polish the top down to flat but you'd still have the "curvature" at the bottom of the letters & numbers.
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Valued Member
 Australia
55 Posts |
Guys, Told you I'd update when all finalised, so I am. Got ALL my money back including all postage, so seller did the right thing & kept his word in this regard. Thanks again for your advice & help - & lesson learned (luckily without too much pain). Cheers, Andy.
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Replies: 13 / Views: 3,988 |
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