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 Replies: 15 / Views: 2,690 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
This is a pretty decent AE4 of Theodosius I. But this thread isn't exactly about the coin itself, but rather the history connected to it. This coin of Theodosius was struck in a city that the emperor himself authorized a terrible massacre against. In 390 AD, thousands were indiscriminately killed in the Massacre of Thessalonica. Its kind of strange, not that I have anything against the coin itself, but I can't help but think of this event every time I see this coin of Theodosius struck in that very city. It almost feels cursed (yes, I still want to keep it). Does anyone else have a coin that is connected to or makes you think about a particular event?  In 390 AD, Theodosius was emperor of the eastern half of the Roman Empire, which included Greece and the city of Thessalonica. Within the walls of the city, a Gothic contingent of the Eastern Roman army was garrisoned, under the command of Theodosius's magister militum for Illyricum, Butheric. Barbarian soldiers in the employ of the empire were discriminated against and never really well-liked by the Roman civilians they were entrusted to protect. Chariot races were still going strong in the late Roman era. People would flock to see the races, and support popular charioteers. Even back then, like now, celebrities were often accused of doing objectionable things. In Thessalonica, a well-liked charioteer was detained by Butheric on the charge of committing a homosexual act. This move by the Master of Soldiers did not sit well with the people of the city. A revolt began after Butheric denied the people the release of the charioteer. Butheric and several other of the city's officials were killed in the fighting, and the revolt took on an anti-barbarian element. Even though the garrison was made up of barbarians, these soldiers still represented the emperor and his will. Going against them (and the Roman officials) was tantamount to going against the emperor himself, and Theodosius, in his anger, would not let what he saw as a traitorous act go unpunished. By his direct order, an army was sent to take back Thessalonica by any means necessary. But the emperor soon had a change of heart, and quickly sent a messenger to rescind his earlier orders. The messenger never reached the city in time. The soldiers struck as the inhabitants were in the hippodrome watching the races, and an orgy of blood, rape, and pillage soon followed. Even women and children were not spared. The army treated Thessalonica as if it belonged to a foreign enemy. After the dark deed was done, seven-thousand people lay dead. Many in the empire were saddened, and angry towards their ruler for what he had done. He lost support from many, most prominently that of Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, who in protest refused to carry out Mass with the emperor, and had Theodosius excommunicated from the church. Theodosius shut himself up in his Milanese palace for the next eight months, tearful and dejected, until he approached Ambrose begging him for forgiveness and re-admittance. The bishop only acquiesced after Theodosius swore to enact a law granting those condemned to death a month delay before their execution. The massacre is a stain on the otherwise very successful reign of Theodosius I, who is still known as "the Great" to this day. Edited by VisigothKing
10/13/2014 7:40 pm
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Pillar of the Community
Italy
1790 Posts |
"Great". In my personal opinion "mediocre" would be a more fitting suffix.
Still a nice piece of history.
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
435 Posts |
Very interesting story that, if I am to be to be honest, I knew nothing about. Out of further interest, what is the historical source for this information...where was it recorded and who by?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
513 Posts |
I have a couple coins minted during the Punic Wars that I associate with them mentally, but nothing as specific as this one. Very great connection between a coin and history.
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Moderator
 Australia
16864 Posts |
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Out of further interest, what is the historical source for this information...where was it recorded and who by? The three main historical writers of this period that have survived are Theodoret, Sozonem and Socrates Scholasticus. Two of the three attest to this same story, more or less agreeing on all but the finer details; Socrates does not mention it. Theodoret, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5 chapter 17. Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7 chapter 25. As these gentlemen were writing church histories not secular histories, the story only gets a mention because of the subsequent excommunication of the emperor by the bishop of Milan; a demonstration of how a "good emperor" responds to a rebuke from the church. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
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Valued Member
United States
234 Posts |
Hm creepy to think that one of the citizens might've had that coin in his pocket when the blood puddled in the streets. I wonder if coins can be cursed?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4692 Posts |
Unfortunately there may be many cursed coins from recent events in the middle east. Sad to say.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4973 Posts |
here's the bishop that was the did the excommunicating on this 15th century coin from milan...  |
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Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts |
VK, any serious collector of pre-modern and older coinage will have coins associated with some drastic event (there have been so many of those in history. How many of those coins might have been in the hands of someone personally affected by those events? That is the beauty of coins, that they are a part of history.
Do I sometimes think about the events happening around the time the coin was in circulation? Certainly. But do I consider any of those cursed? No.
With so many dark events throughout history (and also in modern times), it would make it nearly impossible to collect coins if I would - most could be associated with some of those dark events.
Btw, how much blood was shed by the issuers of your beloved range of late Roman and early post-Roman coinage?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
567 Posts |
Super glad that you posted this, the coins we have are nothing without their history, without that they're just pieces of metal, didn't know this about roman history, it really makes me want one of these coins though!
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Pillar of the Community
United States
3444 Posts |
For a simple and concise description of these events Sir Edward Gibbon is still the best. Chapter XXVII Quote:
Sedition and massacre of Thessalonica, A.D. 390.
The sedition of Thessalonica is ascribed to a more shameful cause, and was productive of much more dreadful consequences.
That great city, the metropolis of all the Illyrian provinces, had been protected from the dangers of the Gothic war by strong fortifications and a numerous garrison.
Botheric, the general of those troops, and, as it should seem from his name, a barbarian, had among his slaves a beautiful boy, who excited the impure desires of one of the charioteers of the circus.
The insolent and brutal lover was thrown into prison by the order of Botheric; and he sternly rejected the importunate clamours of the multitude, who, on the day of the public games, lamented the absence of their favourite, and considered the skill of a charioteer as an object of more importance than his virtue.
The resentment of the people was embittered by some previous disputes; and, as the strength of the garrison had been drawn away for the service of the Italian war, the feeble remnant, whose numbers were reduced by desertion, could not save the unhappy general from their licentious fury.
Important to note that the arrest was not for a "homosexual" act. Kidnapping and the forced "assault" of a minor more aptly reflect the circumstances involved. An important contrast to this over reaction by Theodosius might be the events in a small town of Callinicum where the emperor attempted to be "judicious" Quote:
The monks and populace of Callinicum, an obscure town on the frontier of Persia, excited by their own fanaticism, and by that of their bishop, had tumultuously burnt a conventicle of the Valentinians and a synagogue of the Jews.
The seditious prelate was condemned by the magistrate of the provinces either to rebuild the synagogue or to repay the damage; and this moderate sentence was confirmed by the emperor.
But it was not confirmed by the archbishop of Milan.
He dictated an epistle of censure and reproach, more suitable perhaps if the emperor had received the mark of circumcision and renounced the faith of his baptism.
Ambrose considers the toleration of the Jewish as the persecution of the Christian religion; boldly declares that he himself and every true believer would eagerly dispute with the bishop of Callinicum the merit of the deed and the crown of martyrdom; and laments, in the most pathetic terms, that the execution of the sentence would be fatal to the fame and salvation of Theodosius. Just one headache after another |
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
4778 Posts |
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Btw, how much blood was shed by the issuers of your beloved range of late Roman and early post-Roman coinage? As much as any other nation/culture in man's history. Related to what you said yourself: Quote:
With so many dark events throughout history (and also in modern times), it would make it nearly impossible to collect coins if I would - most could be associated with some of those dark events. Chrsmat, nice coin. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
4778 Posts |
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a demonstration of how a "good emperor" responds to a rebuke from the church. Theodosius submitting to Ambrose, a person of religious authority, can be seen as a precursor to the Pope having influence over the Christian rulers of Europe during the Middle Ages. |
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Pillar of the Community
3772 Posts |
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the Pope having influence over the Christian rulers of Europe during the Middle Ages That authority was given to the pope by Charlemagne, who instead of crowing himself, went to Rome to be crowned on Christmas Day 800 by Leo III. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
513 Posts |
Actually I do have one that may fit the bill. It's a Roman denarius from 89 BC.  The obverse features a bust of the legendary King Tatius, who ruled the Sabine people. The Romans had only recently formed their city and had a severe lack of women, so they decided that during a festival where several other tribes were also gathered they would abduct as many Sabine women as the could carry away and make them their wives. (This is usually referred to as the "rape of the Sabine women," although 'rape' in this context refers to the abduction which was a somewhat common occurrence during the time period.) And that is what the reverse shows: Roman citizens carrying away 'wives.' It's usually not made explicit on descriptions of the coins that I've seen that it is the Rape of the Sabine Women, but it seems very unlikely to be anything else when paired with that obverse. Later on the Sabines attacked to try and take back the stolen women. The battle went back and forth for a bit until the Sabine women (apparently content enough at their marriages now) threw themselves into the middle of the battle and told them they wanted to live neither as widows or orphans, so if their fathers and husbands were going to kill each other they wanted to die as well. The Sabines and Romans then decided to form one nation, putting a neat little bow on what was a pretty horrific (and unfortunately not uncommon) incident. Now, the incident is legendary and probably not historical, but it seems weird for the Romans to have made it up about themselves. They were always pretty big on "society is degenerating, our ancestors were better" so it seems like a really odd thing to weave into a foundation myth unless it's based, at least somewhat, on historical events. And at any rate, the taking of 'wives' was a thing that unfortunately absolutely did happen at different times in Roman and other cultures history, so whether this coin depicts an actual historical incident or a 'template' incident it's still pretty unsettling to think about. Edited by chuy1530
10/15/2014 12:32 am
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Valued Member
United Kingdom
201 Posts |
That's an interesting piece chuy and its this legend apparently which likely forms the basis of why grooms carry their wives over the threshold after marriage today.
According to Plutarch "It continues also a custom at this very day for the bride not of herself to pass her husband's threshold, but to be lifted over, in memory that the Sabine virgins where carried in by violence, and did not go in of their own will".
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Replies: 15 / Views: 2,690 |
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Posted 10/13/2014 7:57 pm
