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 Replies: 33 / Views: 6,105 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Today I lost a very nice counterfeit. http://www.ebay.com/itm/1808-8-REAL...161465333743 I bid over $200 and lost. Here is a picture of the item.  Considering the fact that I attached only a $20 value to the fake counterstamp - can anyone guess what makes this coin so special to someone like me? |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts |
Bob,
It's not the chopmarks, is it?
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I wonder, off metals are harder to find ...
Maybe the quality of the copy ? The fact that for once, it's a Lima issue ?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1211 Posts |
You know what I just noticed the mintmark...
It looks like a Mexico City mintmark at first glance but I suppose it could also be ME? The assayer JP would normally be from Lima so it would certainly make sense.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob -
You lost me on this one. Matt has confirmed these are all modern reproductions? They appear so with their dull surfaces ... his other pieces are just too rare and the fully struck-up (counterstamps)just can't be real (i.e., Osorno piece?).
This type of Morelos counterstamp is an order or two of magnitude more rare than his other type (V.Common).
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
11/04/2014 2:10 pm
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New Member
United States
38 Posts |
The added small "o" over the LIMAE monogram could be an attempt to imitate the Mo mintmark, and thus support the theory that Mo coins deserved a premium over other Colonial pieces in some (presumably oriental, because of the chops) areas?
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
Carlos J-
The "o" might be just a chopmark, which accidently was placed above the LM initials, but I agree with you, that it looks like "Mo" on the picture.
A close-up would be helpful.
Beside of the countermark (which is more than spurious), I can not say, that this piece is a copy (not even a CCF) from the pictures.
To me it looks like a regular, well worn 8 reales coin, a bit overpriced, but still legit.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
A coin in much need for XRF analysis - I think you hit the bullseye Carlos --- the small o over the Lima mintmark (reworked?) is the reason for the spiriting bidding. But his counterstamp issues to me all look bogus from his pics IMO.
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn
11/05/2014 10:42 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
The O over the LM mint mark may be a metal test, as the one near the pillar.
colonialjohn : didn't meant I thought it was fake - I was guessing from Robert's posting ;) The counterstamp looks odd though ...
An interesting coin to investigate indeed :)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
His War of Independence Issues look fake to me - he is on my favorite list and his zipcode is Mexico and some of his other stuff like the regals look good.
Just a bad feeling due to perfect looking counterstamps. Pics are difficult to make a final assessment. Maybe I will try one of his $50 toys and bring it into the lab ...
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Oh wait, didn't noticed it was this guy. He has been selling so many fakes lately, particularly from the morellos era.
Even fancy 4 reales :D
I did suspect he had some genuine stuffs in the middle ... but it's playing russian roulette.
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Pillar of the Community
Austria
566 Posts |
-MathieuMa
Thank you for supporting my opinion about the o-Like chopmark above the LM mint mark.
The theory, that someone will mimick the Mo mint mark from a Lima mint mark in order
to make profit does not sound realistic to me.
Edited by coinworldtv
11/07/2014 06:06 am
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
5362 Posts |
The answer is in fact the o superscript on the partially erased Lima monogram.
This coin (host) is an original 8R that was modified by adding the o so that it would INCREASE the value in China. It is prima fascia proof of the existence of those Altered original coins.
Secondly I like the FAKE swastiza chop mark made with 4 repetitions of what looks like an L. The very common Chinese chop is a three quarter swastika - the true swastika chop mark is NOT CHINESE. The Chinese chop mark that looks like a swastika that is REVERSED.
The third element of course is the modern counterstamp that is a fantasy design.
The composite nature of this "forgery" Class 4 is why I wanted it.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I do not agree that the o above the Lima is a metal test. There is a clear raised outline to a letter O. The center may have started as a punch but the outer line makes the intent clear. It is just like the example that I used in my book as proof.
A 26 percent premium over face value is ABSOLUTELY enough to cause a person in 1830 to alter a Lima coin to read Mo. That amount of money represented several days labor for the average worker. In the US a laborer made $1 a WEEK. So this was a lot of money at the time. It makes total financial sense - logical sense and of course it provides a simple explanation for why these alterations exist.
To anyone who feels that is wrong - I have a simple question - Why do they exist? There is NO OTHER reason for an increased value. With no other explanation I will stand on my theory.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Bob - It's the later fantasy counterstamp that threw me off ... later tonight I will shoot you some images on that 1811 Imaginary Bust piece I picked up from Spain. It turns out that its not Sheffield (no surface peeling seen under 30-40X Sterescope in the lab) and the discoloration was not copper oxide but chlorine whether salt water induced, harsh environment or chemical. The surface was regal level Ag ~ 90%. The dentils are way apart from the edge of the rim - ALL AROUND. See plate coin: 1811-O:I/R:LIMA JP-001 and see here lot 3578: https://www.aureo.com/mediaaureo/Su...go0263-3.pdfI will send you better pictures tonight. There seems to be a ribbon seal at K-3? Tonight ... images forthcoming privately. I know this variety is on the cusp for a Type 1/3. Perfect die match to GNL PLate Coin. JPL Edited by colonialjohn
11/07/2014 2:20 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
coloneljohn - thanks for letting me know. I will look back later. MathieuMa You say: Quote:
The O over the LM mint mark may be a metal test, as the one near the pillar. coinworldtv You say: Quote:
The theory, that someone will mimick the Mo mint mark from a Lima mint mark in order
to make profit does not sound realistic to me. Below is a picture of three mint marks - the one under discussion - the one from my book - a genuine Lima monogram.  I might agree with both of you if the Lima monogram was actually an LM but the mint mark is LIMAE with all of the letters either present or overlapped. It looks like LME not LM. Therefore the ENORMOUS problem with my theory being dismissed as being an accidentally positioned metal test is that the E has been fully effaced in both of the cases shown above. There are others out there - all that is needed is for you all to look for them. So my question remains.  Why would the E have been effaced if I am incorrect in theorizing the mint mark was intentionally altered? A scientific theory STANDS until a better theory comes along and a feeling that it does not "sound realistic" is not scientific. The theory may be counterintuitive but so are many other valid scientific theories.  |
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Replies: 33 / Views: 6,105 |
Posted 11/04/2014 10:42 am
