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1787 Manchin Mills

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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 11/29/2014  10:36 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Please grade.

1787 Manchin Mills Half Penny. Miller 13-D.
AUCTORI CONNEC
Here some cool info:)
http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/Col...n.intro.html

1787-Manchin-Mills
1787-Manchin-Mills
Edited by TJsCoins
11/29/2014 10:54 pm
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amida17's Avatar
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4897 Posts
 Posted 11/29/2014  11:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add amida17 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Typically weak reverse....I think. MId to higher VF....imo. Beautiful example love the pursed lips!
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philadelphian's Avatar
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 Posted 11/30/2014  11:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting how the die linkages can illustrate the history of these colonial coppers. The story of this variety, 13-D, begins with the variety 9-E, which was minted by the legitmate Company for Coining Coppers, in New Haven, under contract from the state. Abel Buell made the dies and ran that company. The 9 obverse went on to be paired with reverses R and D, but those varieties are usually found to be well below the legal weight. It's thought they were minted illicitly by Abel Buell's son Benjamin, who was given the dies after his father fled the country after the debacle over the Fugio coppers that he crafted. Benjamin ultimately sold his father's dies to the counterfeiters at Machins Mills in Newburgh NY, where the D reverse was used again, now paired with obverse 13 for the known Machins Mills counterfeit above.
Note the Machins triangular denticles on the obverse, but not the reverse.
Edited by philadelphian
11/30/2014 11:22 am
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TJsCoins's Avatar
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 Posted 11/30/2014  10:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Amida17, thanks for the grade!:)

If anyone else wants to take a stab at the grade, feel free!

Philadelphian, thanks for the cool information! I am trying learn more about post colonial copper. Your generous response has shown me I have more to learn:) So... I have a couple of questions. Sorry, if these are newbie questions. I have been reading the Bowers book but have a feeling you and some others may have some extra incite.

1.)
Quote:
The story of this variety, 13-D, begins with the variety 9-E, which was minted by the legitimate Company for Coining Coppers

Did you mean 9-D instead of 9-E? (I am assuming your numbers are Miller #'s) I looked up the E reverse in my Bower's (Whitman) book and see that the E is quite different than the D.

2.)
Quote:
Note the Machins triangular denticles on the obverse, but not the reverse.

Are all "triangular denticled" coins of this type Manchin Mills coins? ie. Miller 1.3, Miller 1.6, Miller A, Miller F

3.) Does Bowers mix the "Machin Mills" CONNEC together with the "legal" productions? I see that the Machin Mills English Half Pence have their own section and the Vermont section lists a Mancin Mills / Illogical Muling section.

Edited by TJsCoins
11/30/2014 11:40 pm
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vermontensium's Avatar
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 Posted 12/01/2014  01:22 am  Show Profile   Check vermontensium's eBay Listings Check vermontensium's eCrater Listings Bookmark this reply Add vermontensium to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I agree with VF.. VF25 actually :)

It's a nice example and I like the color.
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GERMANICVS's Avatar
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 Posted 12/01/2014  07:57 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add GERMANICVS to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
This is a nice coin, which I would grade as Very Fine.
Connecticut is one area of Pre-federal coinage I have never ventured into. The number of die varieties is just too bewildering. But, who knows, maybe one day.
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philadelphian's Avatar
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 Posted 12/01/2014  2:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add philadelphian to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
1. I was just showing how the die linkages trace the history of the mintage of these coins. The obverse 9 die was used by Abel Buell with reverse E to make legal Connecticut coppers. Then Benjamin Buell used obverse 9 with reverse D to make underweight coppers that violated the state contract. Then Machins Mills got ahold of the reverse D die and used it with their obverse 13 die to make blatant counterfeits.

2. Those denticles tend to be associated with the Machins Mills products, but aren't completely diagnostic. I can recall at least one instance of our resident expert, vermontensium, being misled by similar denticles into thinking an anonymous counterfeit halfpenny might have been a Machins coin...

3. All the Connecticut coppers, legal and counterfeit, are grouped together by both Miller and Bowers, probably because it's not always clear which is which! It was Walter Breen who attributed a group of them to Machins Mills, but that group is still largely his subjective opinion.
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 Posted 12/01/2014  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TJsCoins to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Philadelphian, thank you for the clarification and additional info! It is much appreciated. I love it when a coin has a cool history and it seems I have gotten lucky with this one:D

Germanicvs, when it comes to old coppers I am like a moth called to the flame;)
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