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 Replies: 48 / Views: 5,105 |
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New Member
Sweden
47 Posts |
Ethics is a branch of philosophy, it differ from person to person and it changes over time, as we live, where we live and how we are raised.
What's right and wrong when it comes to ethics only depends on what the majority thinks at that time, as always.
Is it ethical to deny a poor person a treatment for a ill just because he can't afford it?
Some country's think so...
If you make money of something you bought for a supposed okay value at the time, it doesn't make it right or wrong to share or not to share the profit with the seller, it only depends on who you're asking.
A study showed that older people tend to share more in similar situations where is younger did not.
It all boils up to where you are in life and in what situation, rich or poor, happy or sad and so on...
We have this radio show here in Sweden where they "test" ethics on Swedish celebrity's, it's fascinating sometimes how people think about this subject =)
Edited by zypronix
12/28/2014 6:04 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I agree that ethics can change but the change is usually accomplished very slowly so that for a given time period approximate stability is possible. In a totally a-moral society there are no ethical standards (dog-eat-dog).
The fact that the older parts of the population tend to resist change and the younger elements embrace the same is axiomatic.
However, before we all accept change as inevitable and draw the incorrect conclusion that therefore personal ethics do not matter - we need to recognize that the drive for personal gain at the cost of others has rarely if ever been the dominant ethic of any group. The autonomy of the individual is always restrained by the common good.
I am hopeful that society in general will never view stealing, fraud and greed as acceptable - EVER.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
Quote:
You did allude to GREED - that is the opposite of good ethics. Profiting from someone's error is UNETHICAL. That is really not a gray area. An honest error is an honest error - if you know it happened it is absolutely unethical not to correct the error. It could be argued that one man's greed is another's capitalism... Say I discover a rare coin metal detecting and I receive numerous offers the coin. I decide to take the highest possible price, even if it's only by one penny, because I am greedy. Simply because I wish to make every last penny off of a windfall would make me greedy, but not unethical. Therefore, I think that stating greed is the opposite of good ethics is painting it with far too broad a stroke. Quote:
You raise an good point in #1. Is it ethical to sell to someone you KNOW is likely to create a fraud. The answer is NO. Under the law that is actually illegal but next to impossible to prove. It is exactly where ethics comes into play. An ethical dealer or individual would NOT make the sale PERIOD. In fact ethics would say to have no dealing with someone like that.
Even your example #2 explicitly states you KNOW. If you know it is unethical to sell to the person. The person should be barred from your shop because of unethical behavior. I agree with your stance 100%, however, as you state, it is next to impossible to know the INTENT of a customer, and extremely difficult to enforce, especially in an era of innumerable faceless internet transactions. My second example actually comes from my own ebay experience, where I had a customer who was regularly purchasing large amounts of 40's and 50's wheats, as well as 1909 VDBs. I was sent a message one time asking if I would be able to fill an order for 20,000 40's and 50's wheats and was willing to pay a very fair price. Before responding, I looked at this individual's feedback, and all the pieces came together. He was a large volume seller of 'unsearched' Wheat cent rolls, most of which had a VDB on one end and an S mint Indian cent on the other. Needless to say, this individual is still on my blocked list today. However, in reality, it is quite impractical for all online sellers to thoroughly investigate potential customers unless serious red flags are raised, like the aforementioned examples Quote:
So situations can seem unethical to some, but completely ethical to others. Correct me if I'm wrong Quote:
I have never been a fan of situational ethics. The situation should not dictate the ethics. It can often be used as an excuse to avoid responsibility. Growing up, a close family friend had a saying, 'you are who you are when no one is looking.' Any area where there is large sums of money to be made, there will be lots of people who will be OK with being, at best, amoral when it comes to ethics. Unfortunately, that only makes it more challenging for those who do have a strong set of ethical values. Quote:
I am hopeful that society in general will never view stealing, fraud and greed as acceptable - EVER. Again, unfortunately I think we have seen this time and time again, that society DOES find this to be acceptable... As long as you do not get caught! Look at the 1980's stock boom, the tech boom of the late 90's, the housing bubble we just got through, All of those crises were caused because our collective society allowed stealing, fraud and greed to run rampant... |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
jdmern You must be a lot younger than I am - you are far too easy on amoral behavior.
Greed is not getting the highest possible price in an auction - greed might be concealing a find from the owner of the property to keep it for yourself. Greed is never acceptable because it usually done at anothers expense. Greed is usually defined as having an EXCESSIVE or unreasonable component based on selfishness. The intent od greed is the problem that makes it unethical.
Regarding examples 1 and 2 we seem to agree - it only become ethical once the nature of the customer becomes clear. At that point is when ethics should kick in. My problem is with people who continue to do business after the fraud becomes clear. Those sellers are then equally culpable in my view.
Your conclusion that we live in an immoral society is distressing. An amoral act is always un-ethical. Ethics and morals are essentially the same by definition.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1949 Posts |
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jdmern You must be a lot younger than I am - you are far too easy on amoral behavior. I'm sure I am, I was born in the 1980's, but I feel the whole generational thing is overblown... I strongly feel that those who do not realize corruption and greed are systemic in our society are far too idealistic. I think there are innumerable individuals who are pillars of morality, but the rewards systems is simply out of whack... ebay is a fantastic example of this. Either one of us could tomorrow set up a new ebay account, import a pile of chinese made counterfeits, crack out a few dozen big time details coins, set up some 'unsearched' rolls of wheats, maybe a scam 'roll' of Morgans or two, and pocket over 10k in a short period of time, with little realistic risk of prosecution, with a risk-reward ratio far less than attempting to, say, rob a bank. However, we (and 99.5% of other people in the same boat) do not do so. Why? Because of the ethics. I am condoning in any way, shape or form, but from a LOGIC perspective, you can easily see that the reward system is stacked in the favor of those who choose to game the system (again, we could go back to the idea of plausible deniability) Quote:
Your conclusion that we live in an immoral society is distressing. An amoral act is always un-ethical I don't think it would be fair to say that my conclusion was that we live in an IMMORAL society, I think a proper summation would be we live in a society which tolerates greed, corruption and fraud. However, I do not feel that is a new phenomenon. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1132 Posts |
I manage an IMAX theatre & get world coins for...wait for it. FREE
Why? Because the bank will not accept them & we have no choice but to toss them into a drawer (used to be the TRASH) until I expressed interest, which means that whoever sold said coins is pocketing the money paid per the exchange anyway (pro bono) because there's no way to reconcile foreign monies into the legitimate corporate account.
Although selling of the monies is most likely a violation of whatever businesses policy, because it's like taking expired products off the shelf & hawking them.
No harm, no foul (unless you're the hawker). I would never sell the coins I keep (especially out of said business) because I would lose my job. I keep them because it's a perk. I wouldn't be caught dead selling them out if the back of the theatre.
Edited by CopperCastle
12/28/2014 9:49 pm
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Valued Member
 Canada
270 Posts |
Wade:
Sorry for not clairfying...took them to a local coin shop, and was told they had no intrinsic value and were worth exchange.. didnt mention it just to save back story as my original post was pretty long as it is. Your right, regular exchange places and banks will not exchange foreign coinage. Too late to edit.
Edited by UncleLuc
12/28/2014 11:22 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
767 Posts |
Hey Uncleluc, you were asking about changing the thread title...
If you go back to your original post on the first page, to the right of your name, above your post there's a little pencil and paper icon. Click on that, and you can change the title yourself.
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
I thought I couldnt edit posts after so long? I must be super-new...im thinking of leaving the title..it draws people in, and then they will contribute to the debate because its on a pretty relatable topic. If the moderators havnt locked it by now I'm sure itll be fine...we are still sort of on the topic of getting world coins from tills I gueas haha....I dont mind tho this is an awesome thread!! Keep all opinions comming!! We can all learn something here as it revolves around a topic that is not about how rare our 2×2's look or how large our collection is...Its about personal feelings on basic moralities of our society...threads on fire and I feel its just getting started!!
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Oh and SCOTTK, this may completely blow your mind but here goes...
I believe we put round coins into square flips because most flips are made to be placed into binders, and binders are in fact square or rectangular, it is much more space efficent and will generaly fit more snugly than a circular flip.
Pizzas are made in a circular shape because when the dough is made, it is tossed creating a natural roundness...the boxes however are SQUARE because...
when boxes are sent to pizza places they are sold in large stacks, unfolded...usually a starting cook will speed-fold these boxes almost to a science....if you may remember folding paper into cubes in early school, it would take an extremely complex and expensive box design to be folded up into circles...
hope that helps hahaha!! B.t.w...I know this as ive tried to put capsules into binders, doesn't work well..and as a kid I worked a pizza hut...folding the " B-G-zis" out of the said boxes.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
767 Posts |
UncleLuc, you have unfortunately only exacerbated my problem. Now on top of the original predicament, I have to figure out why binder pages, and binders themselves are not circular.  Edited by scottk
12/29/2014 12:14 am
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
They would roll right off the shelf. Haha
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Books used to be rolled into scrolls.
It was tough turning the pages.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
767 Posts |
Yeah I would have to build my own curved or cupped shelves for circular binders.
Edited by scottk
12/30/2014 05:45 am
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Ok guys I have a real-life ethics dilemma that I'm hoping you all will contribute an agument to. I am in the midst of closing a deal on a DDR commemerative. I purchased the coin for a very fair price which I cant yet mention as the deal is still on the table (it wasnt cheap).. and now I have an interested buyer that is inquiring to purchase...my issue is I have been researching this coin in great lengths to find a fair cataloged price. I have found an NGC documented price of $625-$850 (min. 3 grades lower than mine)... I have found ebay ads (very scarce) from between $200€-$1000€ I have received advice and price suggestions between silver melt value($5)-$1,500 How could I possibly handle this situation "ethically"? Because my main question throughout this debate was "what is ethics?" Who defines an ethical purcahse/sale/price/situation? And where exactly SHOULD I draw the line on this one? Some may say selling it for $850-$1500 would be "unethical" as there is reported sales for less than $300....but we have reputable companies saying its worth much more? Is the closer I get to the $1500 the further I'm straying from ethical principals? Id like to hear your opinions on this one. |
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Posted 12/28/2014 7:02 pm
