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 Replies: 48 / Views: 5,103 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2637 Posts |
I once visited with a coin dealer (no longer living) who had been active since the 1960s. He stated that one time he had been at a local auction where he spotted some GSA Carson City silver dollars (10 or so). One came up for bid and he bid $20. He was the only bidder. Since the GSA dollars were the only item he was interested in, he then asked the auctioneer's associate to confirm the number of dollars so he could calculate the amount for his check. He was told his bid was for all the dollars. So he received 10 Carson City silver dollars for $20.
Was this fraud? Should he have done something differently? He had understood one thing; the auctioneer another, and he was the only bidder.
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Valued Member
 Canada
270 Posts |
Also I never mentioned a statement I make to every clerk that I transact with that may change the overall impression of the situation. If I am ever given a free coin, a load of silvers, or a lot of coins I will tell the clerk..."If I get rich off 'em, you will to." I was obviously saying this in a joking fasion, but I just relized that it is possible I am sub-conciously not allowimg myself to become a cheater, that I am not joking and if I were to ever turn a seriously significant profit that I would absolutely return to the store and share with not only the clerk who gave me said coin, but all clerks who ever gave me anything from that store.
I know that the clerks who bring me coins in truly feel they are contributing to my hobby and in turn feel good about themselves. I think I said it before but I am truly interested in the collecting aspect of the hobby, and not the profit. If I can make a bit of money along the way in order to further finance this extremely expensive hobby then so be it...but I will never trade a friend for a profit. Meaning if it came down to a dispute over a price, or if someone felt cheated...I would do everything in my power to reassure them that my intensions are good and if they still felt weary, the deal would be nixed. Period. It is in no way a desire of mine to get rich with a broken reputation.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
jdmern We are absolutely not in conflict with regard to any of your 4 examples. Those situations are not what I meant. I think your list of unethical activities; Quote:
We all know what is clearly UNETHICAL- 'unsearched' mason jars, basement slabbing, resale of stolen goods, knowingly selling counterfeit pieces as genuine, tooling, ect, ect, ect. What we are really debating is fairly arbitrary. All of the above actually are illegal fraudulent activity - they are not simple issues of ethics. Ethical issues may rise to the level of fraud but not all ethics violations are legally classified as fraud. Regarding your 4 examples: 1. In an auction - as long as all bids are accepted and there is no collusion with the auctioneer or shill bidding - each buyer is an island - he can use his/her knowledge as he/she sees fit and profit in that case is NOT limited. 2. This is the same situation actually, an auction and you were lucky by reason of an auctioneer's error. Catalog errors like this are common. The ethics issue falls on the auctioneer who gets a fee for use of expertise. If the seller learned of the error and felt defrauded their recourse is against the auctioneer not the buyer. This insulation layer between buyer and seller is why auctioneers are professional, usually must be licensed and must have insurance for errors like this. 3. You are profiting from the purchase of a roll of coins. You paid a fair price initially. You did not make it a conditional purchase based on grade. You were not privy to something the dealer did not know. No ethical issue at all. My only comment is that the whole MS 66, 67 thing is foolish. Profit away - hopefully that bubble will burst quicker. Comment - I HATE the Sheldon scale - it was great when developed for large cents but SUCKS as it is now used. 4. You followed the precise formula I proposed for any sale. Set a method follow it honestly. Settle up later after research. No problem. I still want to know one thing from UncleLuc Did the clerk own the store or the coins he sold?
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Yes, I spoke with a lesser status employee first, who could not give me an answer on the box of coins...he told me to return an speak with the manager who takes care of deposits and losses, I did so and he was more than happy to sell them. Also, the manager took a quick look through the box and was not rushed. He then dumped the coins into a plastic bag and took the $20 bill I had placed on the counter. Also, I later returned to share with them how many countries I had pulled out (34) and the fact I found some silver...this had interested them enough to the point where I was allowed to place a magnet in each till, and now they will pass dimes or quarters over it before putting them in the till...they will then set aside any coinage they find and I will then pay them 5x fave value for any of them. If I can help my clerk buddies make a bit of extra cash for themselves, at the same time beefing up my junk silver collection then I feel all is fair. The store never loses a dime because of our transactions, and in many cases they profited in which they wouldnt have hadnt I pitched them the idea. Is this a cheat? Or did I create an unheard of action of "tipping" our store clerks because they go above and beyond for me...You all be the judge...
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
That is absolutely appropriate and completely ethical.
That is a much better way of explaining the process to clear up issues of ethics.
Ethics should never include areas that are covered by the laws but they fill in the gray areas that law does not quite cover.
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Also, I feel if we are talking in terms of auction house mistakes, then the only person who should be held liable is the auctioneer to made the error. Personally, I would specifically ask if they meant the price for all of the dollars or just one...if they confirm that the 10 coin purchase for $20 was legitimate, then whoever made that purchase in my opinion is nothing but a wise consumer who struck a great deal.
In the event the auction house tells you it was a mistake...at that point would it be unethical to refuse to pay more for the merchandise...and nowhere in the law does it state if a seller is unhappy with their received price that it can then be adjusted in the future...ethics would say return or pay more for the coins...greed would tell them to kick rocks...that would be an unethical scenario in my opinion.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
A good friend of mine ran a very successful high end auction gallery for about 20 years. You say: Quote:
then the only person who should be held liable is the auctioneer to [sic: who] made the error. There are a myriad of legalities to be checked - it may be just as simple as you stated or not depending on how the seller consigned the auction and to whom - if a reserve was set - if a right to reject a "low quality" or below market bid was included. If the auctioneer followed or violated policy, etc. etc. The liability for a serious error usually goes to lawyers and insurance companies. Also the liability is rarely limited to just the auctioneer if the facility was also licensed. My friend was involved in a couple cases where museum grade rarities were auctioned and sold for which title was disputed. One artifact I recall brought close to One Million Dollars. It was traced to a decades old theft from a museum. It literally took YEARS to completely adjudicate. My friend's firm was exonerated - but it took an expensive defense. |
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Great response...I agree with you in close to entirety, execpt a few points...
it sounds very unfortunate and I feel bad for your friend and his firm, BUT...it would be safe to assume when dealing with hundreds of thousands of dollars there is going to be a HUGE amount of risk! Its absolutely a shame what happened there, but in order to venture a transation of that magnitude, "starting a fire that large"...theres always a chance of being burned. I believe that topic of discussion revolves around due diligence and how much is enough. If records were able to prove the merchandise to be stolen, then those same record could have been found before the transaction. Obviously I dont know the specifics on the situation but it sounds as tho it could have been avoided. And of course if a reserve is set on an aution item and not met or surpassed, then any seller/auction house/consignee can refuse the price after inital sale...But in that case, there would be no room for ethics to be violated, as no sale is accepted until review of the seller. On the other hand, answer this question...if a person in the auction house made a mistake on the reserve set on an item, and the transaction was complete with the new owner receiveing merchandise...who would then be liable for covering the difference back to the consignee? I personally believe it would be the auction house as the seller thought he made a legitimate purchase, paid in full and has done nothing wrong.
of course there is room for debate in my theory, so lets hear it guys!!
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
To harmonica, I tried to email pictures of the trade tokens you inquired about only to be denied because of my membership status...
they are not that impressive but still respectively rare Greenhill mine tokens from the crownest pass in Alberta. At least XF condition, now in capsules. 100% nickel I believe. Any further info on these would be appreciated but please save it until I am able to email you as I do not want to lock this thread.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1949 Posts |
Quote:
My only comment is that the whole MS 66, 67 thing is foolish. Profit away - hopefully that bubble will burst quicker.
Comment - I HATE the Sheldon scale - it was great when developed for large cents but SUCKS as it is now used. Could not agree more... I think the massive price differential between 1 grade or a + mark is simply stupid... At the same time, I will gladly play that game as long as that market exists... Quote:
I think your list of unethical activities;
Quote:
We all know what is clearly UNETHICAL- 'unsearched' mason jars, basement slabbing, resale of stolen goods, knowingly selling counterfeit pieces as genuine, tooling, ect, ect, ect. What we are really debating is fairly arbitrary.
All of the above actually are illegal fraudulent activity - they are not simple issues of ethics. Ethical issues may rise to the level of fraud but not all ethics violations are legally classified as fraud. Unfortunately, all except for the most blatant examples have 'plausible deniability'. It's the same idea many other unscrupulous people use to get away with all kinds of cons and unethical behaviors in all kinds of fields... It's almost a 'yeah, but you can't prove anything' kind of thing... Now here are a couple of other numismatic ethical dilemmas... 1. What if a notorious crack out artist wanted to purchase your inventory of details coins at ask price? 2. What if someone is purchasing large amounts of coins from you in order to create 'unsearched' rolls? For example, you know for a fact what is in their rolls, because they are purchasing bags of 40's and 50's wheats as well as numerous 09 VDBS and 08-s Indians and are selling rolls with a VDB on one end and S Indian on the other? |
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Both great examples of unethical behaviour. I suppose it all boils down to simply being an honest salesman or not. Anyone can put anything up for sale at any price, so I guess we as consumers need to research our purchases so that we can avoid these clearly wrong situations. Does that mean it is 100% the sellers fault for overpricing? Is it the buyers fault for not doing due dilligence? Or both?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
UncleLuc Regarding when title actually passes in an auction - the point can be debated and that is where court and lawyers come in. The magnitude of the error also comes into play. The buyer at auction in a disputed case is not entirely off the hook if the sale price was "unreasonable" for the item. You are entirely correct that due diligence is required but for an item stolen decades before which had not appeared in sales for some time it took someone familiar with the artifact to spot it. You did allude to GREED - that is the opposite of good ethics. Profiting from someone's error is UNETHICAL. That is really not a gray area. An honest error is an honest error - if you know it happened it is absolutely unethical not to correct the error. That is why I asked about a clerk giving someone the wrong change. The ethically correct approach is to correct any error. To keep it is unethical. Not illegal just unethical. jdmern Even though a fraud can make a defense in court against legal charges - it is none the less clearly unethical. Charges should be made or better still the parties involved could be barred from the business. Removal of ANA membership is just a start. Trust and Safety at ebay tried a zero tolerance policy for these kinds of obvious but hard to prove frauds but we were not able to do so because of "business" rules. It is less of a legal issue but more a boycott issue. You raise an good point in #1. Is it ethical to sell to someone you KNOW is likely to create a fraud. The answer is NO. Under the law that is actually illegal but next to impossible to prove. It is exactly where ethics comes into play. An ethical dealer or individual would NOT make the sale PERIOD. In fact ethics would say to have no dealing with someone like that. Even your example #2 explicitly states you KNOW. If you know it is unethical to sell to the person. The person should be barred from your shop because of unethical behavior. UncleLuc In your last post you say: Quote:
Does that mean it is 100% the sellers fault for overpricing? Is it the buyers fault for not doing due dilligence? Or both? The unethical behavior by the seller is NOT altered by the failure of due diligence on the part of the buyer. To stop the practice of inflating grades and profiteering in sales by unethical methods the problem is 100% on the unethical sellers. How to stop them is much different issue. The rest of the numismatic community should be the police. There should MUST be a zero tolerance policy with regards to individuals like this. If they make no sales and can buy nothing to sell - they are out of business.
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Valued Member
Canada
270 Posts |
Well I suppose the only way to stop these behaviors is to all become more informed when making any purchases. Often in life you have to trust that the opposite party in a transaction is being true to you, but how can we be sure? This doesn't mean we should all have the "dont trust no one" attitude because that would only make for a cold society, but how as buyers can we be sure of anyone? Like I said It can be easily summed up into being a good person or not...
Some hold doors for women, others dont.
that may be quite a broad statement, but just think about it...We as people can either decide to do the right thing or the wrong thing, no matter what the circumstances. BUT...where do we draw the line? Meaning there is nobody writing a book on a code of ethics, so you can only violate them if you understand you are doing so. If you dont feel you are comminting any sort of ill actions, then it is only those who judge the situation that would feel something is wrong...
So situations can seem unethical to some, but completely ethical to others. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Edited by UncleLuc
12/28/2014 3:53 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
I have never been a fan of situational ethics. The situation should not dictate the ethics. It can often be used as an excuse to avoid responsibility. We all need to avoid buying from scammers. For the fake unsearched roll fraud to work there must be customers. For others like the crack out specialist - an expert is needed to identify when it happens. We tried that at ebay but even when caught red handed management would not permanently suspend an ID for the first infraction. A lot of these frauds could be stopped by third party entities but that would require an indemnity for actions taken by any panel involved. On of ebay's concerns was litigation by seller's who felt "harmed" by an enforcement effort. I have no good solution. |
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Pillar of the Community
Canada
2781 Posts |
Quote:
There were 3, 50 yuan coins in there (mistaken for loonies), with a total exchange rate of roughly $25...took them in and was paid. where did you take them? I've never heard of anyone having much luck at any currency exchange with anything except for bills. |
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Replies: 48 / Views: 5,103 |
First Page
Posted 12/27/2014 7:40 pm
