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Varieties In Canadian Large Cents

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JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  01:51 am Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
It's obvious that dies for Canadian large cents were used, recycled and abused a lot. I have numerous coins with lots of cracks and holes from metal stuck in the dies. Clearly they had a lot more problems with consistency than US coins of the same time periods, probably until the 1980s, when coins started looking pretty perfect most of the time.

I was looking for general discussion on how much attention one should pay to die destruction varieties. On some, it's really easy to find sub-varieties over time. For example, the broken vine on 1858 large cents grew more and more noticeable until 1859 rolled around and they (mostly) used new dies, well, they did re-punch a lot of them.

How many of you collect these varieties as part of your collections, and how do you describe the line you draw between major and minor differences in die damage?
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fourmack's Avatar
New Zealand
1679 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  01:59 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
check this out first http://www.vickycents.com/index.html for all 1859s.
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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fourmack's Avatar
New Zealand
1679 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  02:01 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
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fourmack's Avatar
New Zealand
1679 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  02:03 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add fourmack to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cheers Don

Vickies cents and GB Farthings nut.
"Old" is a figure of speech and nothing more
Valued Member
JSabatke's Avatar
United States
114 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  03:06 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JSabatke to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have probably a good dozen 1859 large cents. I desperately need a microscope with photo capability. I could probably get the coin shop in town to take photos for me, hopefully inexpensively. I think I can see some varieties, but my eyes just can't quite resolve enough detail.

Also, I bought a couple years of small cent varieties of pointing to and between denticles. They came unmarked and have been sitting in a box since because I just can't make out the differences.
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Canada
5589 Posts
 Posted 03/12/2015  06:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add okiecoiner to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reason that they have so many anomalies in the Provincial Large Cents (1858 & '59) is because of the design, the presses and the planchets used. The Royal Mint in London had been striking copper Brit half-pennies for decades and that's what their machinery and pressures were set-up for.

When the order for the 10 million Provincial Cents came from Canada, with Bronze planchets (harder than copper)and 1/3 THINNER than the Brit half-penny, they were already primed for massive die failure. Couple that with an intricately designed Reverse side with over 100 acute angles needed for the dies and you have broken dies all over the place. They also had to use all the old 1858 masters and hubs to make the 1859 working dies. They ground-off the 8 from the hub so all the 1859 dies were initially struck/pressed as 185 blank dies and the final 9 hand-whacked in with a hammer and punch (2-4 whacks total required with annealing required before each whack). That's why you have 9's all over the place and peeking out underneath more visible 9's.

The average die life for the Provincials was somewhere estimated to be around 30-40,000 coins, some much greater and some much more. If the press started with a pristine die and then struck 500 coins before the first crack appeared, then 2,500 more when a second crack appeared, then 5,000 more when a third crack appeared, then 5,000 more when a few vines/stems/leaves chipped, then 5,000 more when serifs started chipping off the lettering, then 2000 more when Die Deterioration stared heavily and finally broke, you would have 20,000 coins and 6 different visual anomalies from a single working die. If people/collectors called each of these stages a variety because it looked different, you'd have 6 varieties, while a die tracker would call it 1 variety and someone who collected just "Major" varieties would just call it a Narrow 9, along with the rest of the routine 59's that are found in abundance.

If a person tried to collect every '59 that looks a little different because of cracks, chips or whatever, most people would be 6 feet under with the task still incomplete. Hans Zoell, over 50 years ago, said it best in his pamplets and books. You have "Major" and "Minor" varieties. A Major variety is a coin struck with a good die, using proper pressure, good machinery and a good planchet as set forth and approved by the Mintmaster. Now there may be some handpunching already done on the working die because of gradual damage to the hub (which makes the die) from weak letters, broken stems or vines, etc, but the die is essentially OK'd by the Mintmaster to strike coins.

Anything that happens after that point to the die is a "Minor" variety and that would include cracks, chips, Cuds, strike-thrus, clashes, and most kinds of mechanical/machine doubling just to name a few. Collecting Provincial large cents is nearly a life-long experience, even if you just collect the "Major" varities or theose that are "Major" in your eyes. A "die tracker' has a much larger population to deal with, and a tracker who also wants every die state, crack appearance, and marriage pairing with the Obverse will have grandchildren approaching retirement before they can complete it.

I say, just enjoy the hobby for what it is in your own mind and don't be distracted by what one person calls a variety and others call a "vanilla" coin. I have collected Large Cent varieites for over 40 years and I call a variety "any difference that I can see with my naked eye or well-offset with a 3X loupe. I also consider well-offset machine/mecanical doublings (like the 1881 Obverses), clashes (like the '81 Reverses), and massive D/C's (like the '91 Reverse "handle on the C" to all be collectible varieties. You have to set your own definition. The links that our Kiwi friend gave you in earlier posts are great places to start. If you want to go further, get the first 3 of Rob Turner's books on the large cents. Archives of this and other sites have great information stored, although some sites are no longer around. Post any questions that you have here and someone will jump in to help.

Edited by okiecoiner
03/12/2015 06:58 am
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