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Replies: 15 / Views: 4,513 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1757 Posts |
Carlos I will have a numismatist named Julia Purdy send you shortly some news articles which indicate the sending of counterfeit coins made in Belleville, NJ for Central America and South America distribution in the early 19thC. This may have connections to that Honduras specimen we discussed of 1833. Tonight ot tomorrow.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
John - can you send me the references as well?
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
OK. Done. One was for Brazil and South America - related. This sent.
The others are Canadian (Blacksmith Coppers) related IMO. Not sent.
All Belleville, NJ CC shipment articles.
JPL
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New Member
United States
38 Posts |
Hi John. Did not receive anything yet. I know the Belleville connection for counterfeit Haitian coins of the Boyer type. a few examples can be found in Ray Byrne's sale. all those Haitian "patterns" overstruck over US Cents or counterfeit Brazilian copper coins are likely of that origin.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
When I purchased that coin (1833 Honduras Silvered Copper Host - Regal Type Edge) I showed you at the New York International it had on the dealers flip probably from NJ (20thC) which did not make sense based on the XRF analysis of high sulfur and other attributes making the coin's manufacture MORE within the period of a regal issue (i.e., early 19thC)= contemporary circulating counterfeit. In the interim I analyzed two others (1833 Honduras) from another collector and they are all the same with a copper host and regal edge with various levels of mercuric amalgam type silvering - I have the newspaper article on my desktop so will forward over tonight to the main MCC Contact E-Mail. Belleville, NJ also comes up often as a supply area for Canadian Tokens (both regal and counterfeit) as well in terms of copper/brass trade tokens being the regal side say for specific merchants ordering advertising tokens. This was the first reference I have seen of a large shipment of coppers being shipped to a counterfeit center for "eventual" South American/Central American distribution. The article indicates the raw copper host coins were made and then the silvering if needed was then applied at another location if required depending of the coin denomination and location in South American or Central America as the captured coins by the authorities "NONE" showed any silvering. A very informative and short newspaper article.
JPL
Edited by colonialjohn 03/23/2015 08:09 am
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New Member
United States
38 Posts |
Dear John. Please make a copy to my gmail address. I have trouble accesssing the other account sometimes. I will send you a short note I wrote sometime ago on a Haitian piece of Belleville origin.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Check your E-Mail. Done.
Anyone else just E-Mail me. Ask for Belleville, NJ article.
JPL
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Pillar of the Community
United States
5362 Posts |
Hi John - can you also senf me a copy for my file of articles.
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
Hello everyone! I'm a Belleville native who has been studying these coins on and off for about a year. I'd love to trade notes with John and anyone else who might have something to add. I was not convinced that the 1833 Honduras issues were products of Belleville, but I admit I have not yet properly considered them. My growing Belleville collection: http://www.forumancientcoins.com/ga...p?album=4970
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Contact me privately and I will send you the newspaper clip of the counterfeiting gang who was arrested and what they were shipping. I see from your link you have Belleville, NJ HTT's - OK - there is no direct proof this species was from Belleville, NJ but its a connection you wish to broadcast to see if anything more definitive can come from this article.
There is also speculation that some Canadian Blacksmiths may also originate here. If you are a so-called expert there is always been SPECULATION that this city could produce coins legally or illegally. What have you uncovered which is illegal in terms of any coin production activities?
John Lorenzo Numismatist United States
Edited by colonialjohn 05/16/2015 09:12 am
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
Great to see other people interested in this area! Is the article in question "Counterfeiting Days - A Belleville Business Which Was Once Legitimate" in the Newark Sunday Call, 2 June 1895? If so, its a perfect example of the yellow journalism that was common at the time, and should be taken with a large grain of salt. The highly embellished story is cribbed entirely from contemporary articles relating to the arrest and trial of Joseph Gardiner (Gardner), particularly "Coining Establishment Broken Up," in The Sentinel, 5 June 1835. Gardiner was arrested by US Marshals on Monday, 1 June 1835 at his house in Belleville, "the last dwelling on the left side of the Newark and Belleville road before it enters the village." He was found to be in possession of numerous dies and die making tools, as well as two counterfeit 8 reales, other "spurious Spanish coin," dies for French 1831 5 Francs and Mexico City 1819 8 Reales, and a bag of Haitian coppers. The 30 November 1835 issue of the Newark Daily Advertiser gives a summary of the trial - Gardiner was charged with counterfeiting 5 Francs and Spanish 2 Reales, and seperately with counterfeiting head pistareens (peninsular Spanish 2 reales). He was acquited on the first charge, while the question of whether the head pistareens qualify as parts of a Federal dollar was carried to the Supreme Court. The January 1836 session of the high court decided that they did not ( https://law.resource.org/pub/us/cas...S.618.html). I believe the pistareens in question are Kleeberg Group VII, but have not yet had a chance to pursue the matter further. I've managed to identify quite a few issues from the Belleville establishment. Wesley Cox's punch study of the HTTs led to easy identification of those. He also tied the Canadian series in quite neatly. We know that Belleville struck some Brazilian coins, but I have not yet identified these. An 80 Reis overstruck on a Federal cent (Goldberg 51, lot 476) should provide the key to unlocking the series. Jacobs ("The Shadow Issues of the Belleville Mint," in Canadian Numismatic Journal, 1996) attempted to identify these, but I disagree with his methodology of simply attributing to the mint whatever the crudest counterfeits in the series are. This argument would apply to the blacksmiths as well. Gardiner and Gibbs were both highly skilled engravers and were unlikely to make anything so crude. Attribution of the Haitian issues faces the same problem that the Brazilians do, only magnified by a lack of a detailed study of the official issues. Here, the key will be the overstruck Boyer 50 Centimes (Heritage 3014, lot 24321 and ANS 1941.21.1). I've PM'd John a link to my working catalog of Belleville issues. Anyone else who is interested can contact me.
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
John - I can't actually send you that link, as I don't yet have permission from the forum to send emails or private messages. Gotta keep that spam out! :-)
You can email me at (myusername) at gmail, if you'd like. I'd love the article you mentioned, as well.
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
One piece of proof I forgot to offer that Belleville struck Canadian tokens and issues for South America: in a letter dated 4 April 1839, JML Scovill wrote to WH Sovill, "He tells me Thomas & Stephens have in 4 years made over $100000.00 in stamping Canada & Nova Scotia tokens & Southern Coins @35c lb & are now full of orders for them."
The structure of the mint at Belleville is unclear, but it appears that Thomas & Stephens were the owners by the late 1830s.
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Just sent ... after you get me E-Mail SEND EVERYTHING!
John Lorenzo
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New Member
United States
7 Posts |
John - I haven't received anything. To be clear, my email is Ardatirion as well.
Edited by Ardatirion 05/17/2015 10:44 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1757 Posts |
Perhaps it was somebody else. Will try again tonight. E-Mail me at johnmenc ...
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Replies: 15 / Views: 4,513 |
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