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3 Fake Coins...?

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Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/29/2015  3:59 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Whatever ... I will pay $100 for the Confederate CC ...

Yes the Austrian Ducat is the notorious Readers Digest promotion coin (in my upcoming book) and the other is a ho ... hum.

Keep me posted Elbarto.

JPL
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The Silver Searcher's Avatar
United States
1388 Posts
 Posted 03/29/2015  4:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add The Silver Searcher to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
may I sell it on this site


Not yet. You're going to need a lot more posts for that to be allowed. I forget the exact number, it's in the rules somewhere.


Quote:
can I do like multiple scans of 5-10 coins (front and back)


If it's information you're looking for, then individual topics for each coin will go a long way.
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 03/29/2015  6:20 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
From the rules

250 quality* posts and membership for 90 days are required to; post items for sale, post items for trade, or reply to a want list.

Second, how can a Confederate half be a contemporary counterfeit as it never circulated. Collectors weren't even aware of its existence until 1879.
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swamperbob's Avatar
United States
5362 Posts
 Posted 03/29/2015  10:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add swamperbob to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
MeadowviewCollector You ask:


Quote:
Second, how can a Confederate half be a contemporary counterfeit as it never circulated. Collectors weren't even aware of its existence until 1879.


That is an excellent question.

The answer is of necessity a bit complex.

First of all, the definitions of "Contemporary Counterfeit and Numismatic Forgery" are not definitions cast in stone that apply in the same way to all types of coins. They are meant to be somewhat flexible and to differentiate between collectible (historic and or valuable) varieties of fakes and junk.

I tried to cover some of the philosophy of how I personally classify non-genuine issues in my book. It is a subject I have been concerned with since the very start of my collecting efforts nearly 55 years ago when I was a teen. At the outset, I believed that FIRM definitions could be drafted which applied to all kinds of coins. One set of rules sounds good but it is not practical. As I matured (during the 60s when everything was being challenged) I realized that the definitions must be flexible to include all coin series yet must be specific to be of value.

I finally (rather recently) realized that each series of coins has different parameters of circulation which determine how the classifications of counterfeit, forgery and original apply.

The critical parameters are:

Dates of production.
Length of the interval of circulation.
Start date of numismatic interest.
Period of monetization.

The dates of production is usually the easiest to determine. This can vary from a few days to hundreds of years. At the short extreme you can envision an emergency wartime issue (e.g. Newark siege issues) or an unsuccessful design that required almost immediate revision (1916 US quarter dollar or 1909 VDB cents). At the opposite extreme you have the coinage of Switzerland where essentially the same design has been in use since 1879. Varieties arise by metal used and specialists can detect die and hub varieties but in general they "all look the same".

The length of the interval of circulation - this is more difficult to determine and often requires some research. Some coins like the Mexican Portrait 8 reales, the Austrian ducat, the Dog-Dollar of the Netherlands or the Maria Theresa Taler circulated not only in the places they were made but also over a much wider area and for far longer than a "normal" issue.

The third parameter the start of numismatic interest is far harder to determine but must be assessed to establish the possible period of numismatic forgery. It is also necessary to determine how the collecting community defines "original". Technically we all know that the King of US coins the 1804 Silver Dollar is a non-monetary, non-circulating coin that in reality could be called a counterfeit. In that case there are NO Original coins. There are two types of these early counterfeits which are called originals and restrikes. There are no circulating counterfeits but numismatic forgeries by the ton.

Finally the period of monetization overlaps somewhat with the idea of collectability. They are together the history of the coin itself.

So at this point lets assess the Confederate Half Dollar. A reverse die was made (it is generally accepted) in 1861 and a limited number of "pattern" strikes (perhaps 4 coins) were made as presentation issues. As you point out - these were unknown or forgotten by collectors until the "discovery" of the die. The coin was never monetized nor did it ever circulate. So there are NO originals?

Scott made some restrikes on altered 1861 half dollars. He also made some strikes using a new die in place of the obverse. The die was then cancelled by cutting the surface and a second group of restrikes was prepared at a later time. All of these created over a period of over 20 years are collected as more or less "original" types having been made with the first die. They are of course not all the same age of value. In the period immediately after the die was discovered other unauthorized copies (some based on descriptions or drawings) were created. These are the "contemporary counterfeits". They are defined by their age and collectible value. These are typically fantasy die designs. They were made to pass in place of the Scott restrikes at a time when those restrikes were of minimal value but high interest as both souvenirs and collectible coins.

Later replicas were created as simple souvenirs - and numismatic forgeries. The numismatic forgeries are faithful to the original design and were created to fool collectors. These are nearly worthless.

So how do you classify these various non-original coins into useful collector groups?

If you are familiar with my book, I defined 5 categories or Classes of Portrait 8Rs (including originals as Class 5 unnamed) because that was the most useful number for that series of coins.

The 5 are:

1. Contemporary Circulating Counterfeits
2. Contemporary Circulating Silver Counterfeits
3. Numismatic Forgeries
4. Other - altered, mined, replicas, jewelry, bvuttons, etc.
5. Originals

I hope you understand the method I am trying to use. It is also driven by the original intent of the persons making the coins.






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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
United States
4409 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  12:19 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had my ah-ha moment after reading your reply a couple of times.

I was aware of the Scott restrikes but didn't know there were knockoffs from that era.



-MV


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Susuman's Avatar
United States
595 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Susuman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Swamperbob and/or Colonialjohn, I am curious about what you see in this 1861 counterfeit, and why does it have value? In other words, 'what is it?'
Edited by Susuman
03/30/2015 12:38 am
New Member
Elbarto's Avatar
Italy
25 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  08:04 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elbarto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Well, the informations were really interesting and I enjoyed sincerely to read about it all, but... I'm on around 20 posts, so how can I sell my collection here...? I still miss something like 230 posts... impossible... I think I will have to create an account on ebay, and maybe after that I hope that I will be able to advertise my collection here too... at least I hope it will be possible.
@ Silver searcher: no, I don't need informations,
i know the value now of all the coins I have to sell. I just wanted to know how many coins should I scan in a single picture, to mantain a good quality image, acceptable for collectors.
And @ Colonialjohn,
well, my intention was always to sell my collection "entire". I would love to sell single coins, but it would take so much time (I'm italian but I live and work in Hungary, so it is also difficult to arrange shippings, since people here don't speak english 90% of the times)... and I would have more thoughts, having to deal with various buyers, instead of just one... You know, it would be a bit complicated. Or maybe you would take care of everything, so that I just should have to wait for the courier at home with the coin..?
About my collection, I just hope that someone could suggest how many coins (maximum) I can scan in one pic... thanks a lot in advance.
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  08:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Elbarto - just set up a PayPal account. You can even send someone a bill after this task is completed.

Bill me for $100.00. I pay and end of story. I can't thick of a country in Europe that I did not pay someone using PayPal. This is a KOOL coin and would illustrate it in my new book on World Counterfeits and U.S. Counterfeits.

If someone offers more no hard feelings ...

JPL
New Member
Elbarto's Avatar
Italy
25 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  08:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elbarto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yes, I see, there is no problem in the payment: Paypal would be ok.
As I told You, the problems would come with the shipping (i wrote about that):
what would You suggest for only one coin..?
New Member
Elbarto's Avatar
Italy
25 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  09:47 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elbarto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
i contacted Fedex for informations about the shipping... Then I will have to create a paypal account, check if my old credit card still works... it will take a little bit of time to do all this stuff, but if You will have the necessary patience, Colonialjohn, I hope we can have a deal. In the beginning I just thought to sell the collection to a local guy, so all these things are new to me, I say sorry...
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colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  1:41 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Take your time and I will include it in my new book and send you a copy to Italy.

For me I send it registered mail and to to Italy is about $20.00 U.S..

JPL
Valued Member
ben89's Avatar
United States
73 Posts
 Posted 03/30/2015  2:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ben89 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
probably would help with the question about best way to sell if you told us what type of coins you had? remember the value of coins is very subjective and US coins usually bring the highest premiums in the US. although ive read on here some styles are very popular overseas. one german said he would travel to the US for work and buy up morgan's to sell for profit to dealers back in germany. so if you having the coins in hungary went to a coin store and tried to sell old italian coins you wouldnt probably get as good of an offer as you would in itally.

ebay takes 15%(?) of the sell and you will probably have a hard time getting what you want for them if your using a source like RedBook or KP. but if you dont want to sell individually id do group sells by country, types, bullion values, old/new/medieval/ancient.

also out of curiosity, are you interested in the coins other than to just sell them?
New Member
Elbarto's Avatar
Italy
25 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  1:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elbarto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
@ Ben89,
unfortunately the coin stores that I have known are all not so good, and evaluate things usually at 20% of their real value, that's why I decided to sell my collection on the internet. Well, I have put much passion on taking all the needed informations about these coins, and I must admit that all this world fascinates me. The only problem is that I don't have enough time to dedicate to that, having already lot of activities and passions, plus job obviously... So now I'm into it to sell my collection, with big respect, attention and interest, but not as a real lover.
Thanks for all your advices. My coins are of all kinds: lot of them are italian, but the others come from all over the world.
Anyway, in the end I think that ebay will be the only chance for me, although I will have to pay that percentage (i thought it should be 9%, not 15... :/ ).

@ Colonialjohn,
i finally have created a Fedex account, but things with paypal are a bit complicated. Not only they ask for copies of documents, but I also found out that if I have a paypal account, every person who will pay to me something, will receive my private details (name, address, etc). It would be no problem with you, obviously... But I don't like this idea, thinking about the future transactions... I think is not good for my privacy.
So I was thinking about selling everything with payment at delivery.
In this case it's just one coin, so you will open the envelope at the presence of the courier, and there would be no problem to check, no..?
If for you is ok to pay on delivery, I will just start the procedure by express courier, as soon as you communicate to me the address that I have to send the coin to...
Pillar of the Community
colonialjohn's Avatar
United States
1757 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add colonialjohn to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent you a private E-Mail with the instructions on sending the Confederate Half Dollar Coin to me in the United States via a PayPal payment and then registered (secured) mailing. Maybe what you Italians call a courier service. We call it registered (sign-for) package. The package is delivered to my town P.O. and I go down and sign for its release by providing proper I.D..

P.O. = (Post Office)

John Lorenzo
United States
Edited by colonialjohn
03/31/2015 3:53 pm
New Member
Elbarto's Avatar
Italy
25 Posts
 Posted 03/31/2015  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Elbarto to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Ok, I got the message John.
The main problem is that I'm living in a foreign country, not in Italy, where still is really hard for me to communicate with the natives.
If I had been in my homecountry, for sure everything would have been easier. Tomorrow I will ask for support anyway, not to the post office, where in the best-case scenario the coin would get lost, but at the courier customer service, if the only employee who speaks english will not be on sick leave... Hope to give you positive news tomorrow evening (now for me is almost 23:00),
all the best!
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