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 Replies: 55 / Views: 4,596 |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by Morgan Fred
thereby applying a specific standard and setting a specific benchmark
This was exactly the problem. A while back we discussed what effect cleaning has on grades. A harsh cleaning can deduct 2 or more points from the overall grade. However, I along with many other dealers would continue to sell Anacs graded coins at the "Detailed" grade versus the "Net" grade. It is my personal decision, that cleaning DOES NOT change the grade. It will change the value, but a grade is a grade. AU is AU regardless of cleaning. As I stated earlier, I think that this will in the end be a positive move for Anacs and the hobby. Many people in the past have purchased UNC detailed coins with a net grade of AU or XF because of a cleaning. How is this fair? Grading SHOULD NOT change irregardless of whether it has been cleaned. The value (like any) is 100% dependent on the buyer. If you see a cleaned coin and still believe it to be worth the money of the assigned grade, then pay the price. If you deem it less in value, pay less. Assigning a "NET" grade is wrong. Cleaning CANNOT change the numerical grade. Edited by national dealer
09/29/2005 7:07 pm
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Rest in Peace
United States
2684 Posts |
Once again, ND, your logic is impeccible and I have to agree with it. From the evidence, ANACS also agrees. It certainly would be nice if PCGS and NGC could also agree; the result would be that they would slab cleaned coins and assign them a Details grade rather than taking our money and running leaving us nothing to show for the $15, $30, or $50 we sent them.
A rare coin which has been cleaned is still rare. I wonder what PCGS would do if I polished up my 1933 St. Gaudens double eagle a little before I sent it to them? [:0]
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Valued Member
United States
363 Posts |
I might be a little confused as to exactly what is meant by "cleaning". It seems to me that all cleanings are not created equal. If one takes a soft cloth and pats or gently rubs dry a coin that has been immersed in a weak solution of Ivory dishsoap, and then rinsed, that is certainly not the same as the Brillo pad treatment mentioned earlier, yet both it seems are cleanings. In the case of the latter, I would have to say that I disagree with the statement that cleaning cannot change the numerical grade, at least in some cases. If a coin is uncirculated with no wear on the highest points and is given a Brillo pad treatment, to me the coin must now be AU, since it now possesses the minute scratches from wear at least on the highest points. (which is part of the definition of AU) The sudden "circulation" has occurred from the intense steel wool treatment. To me, the coin does not now have uncirculated details, and thus, the numerical grade has changed. Some coins I'm sure have been cleaned so harshly that it is impossible to even tell what grade the coin was before the cleaning. (how could one know how much metal had been removed?) And so, if you see an XF coin, say, in a holder but noted as cleaned, I don't think you can assume that the coin was XF before the cleaning. (at least in the cases of the harsher cleanings)
However, I do agree that the "net grade" concept of cleaned coins is kind of a moot point, not really something that is necessary, let each person judge for themselves the value of the cleaned coin.
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Rest in Peace
United States
954 Posts |
You're pretty much right on ND. I would be more willing to discuss value because of cleaning than I would grade.
catman
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Valued Member
United States
363 Posts |
Hmmm, I think I may have misunderstood the post of ND. I see now that what you meant was that the notation of "cleaned" on the holder does not change the grade of the coin inside. So, if the coin has XF details, what's the point of giving it a net grade of VF, or whatever. Everything I said before...NEVER MIND! (at least I'm working my way to 50 posts so I can buy, sell, and trade without retribution! LOL)
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by adobero1
I might be a little confused as to exactly what is meant by "cleaning".
You are far from the only one. It is estimated that 90% of 19th century and older coins have been cleaned. I also subscribe to this figure. The simple fact that all cleaning is NOT bad is the most confusing. Cleaning became a major no-no in the 20th century as numismatists realized that the original luster is lost. Silver and Copper are the most effected. There are many factors in determining what "harsh" cleaning means, and it changes depending on whom is asked. Walk into any coin shop, and you will find several different bottles of coin cleaning agents. Jewel Luster (Ezest), MS-70, Speed Dip, Blue Ribbon, Coin Care, E&T, Uni Solvent, Dellars, and more. This is what confuses more collectors than anything. Why if cleaning is bad, do dealers sell this stuff? Add to this that NGC began "conserving" coins after the hundreds of millions of dollars were found on the sea floor. In cases of PVC or Tape residue or any form of damaging agent is destroying the coin, it is agreed that the coin must be cleaned. In times past, dealers would pay far less for a cleaned coin, yet would sell it. PCGS and NGC are the leaders in the hobby, and they have very strict guidelines for what is cleaned and what is not. These factors seem to be a floating target. Submit an 1895 Morgan dollar that has been polished, and you will get it graded. Submit an 1865 Two Cent coin cleaned with distilled water and patted dry and you will get a body bag. I have still not figured out exactly what standards are used with PCGS and NGC. Seems hit and miss. However, if properly cleaned, (NO SOAP AND WATER, NO ACIDS, NO SCRUBBING) it does very little to the overall value. If you must clean, use only distilled water. If anyone has been keeping up with the news, NCS (NGC Conservative company) is going to conserve the Smithsonian Collection. This collection, the most valuable in the world, has museum wax covering the coins. Of course this collection will never see private ownership, but if it would, PCGS and NGC would happily certify each. So go figure! |
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Rest in Peace
United States
3730 Posts |
You mentioned the Smithsonian collection.
I understand it was closed down.
Do you know what happened to the coins?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
2724 Posts |
It closed early in the year. Not enough visitors and it took up too much space. People today want to see everything via computers.
As of today, there is NO word on what will happen with the collection, known as the "National Collection". The U.S. Mint wanted to create a museum in the property that they own in dowtown D.C. but that plan has gone nowhere.
So like most of the other National Treasures, this collection will sit behind closed doors and collect dust.
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
I noticed this what I think is a poorly cleaned coin on ebaySee how the brush strokes even run over the right leg and yet the picture comes out in nice lustre The vendor says this eagle is 33 grams of pure gold so that must be a unique coin It is offered as XF http://cgi.ebay.fr/Amerique-20-doll...cmdZViewItem |
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Valued Member
United States
458 Posts |
IMHO, both the 1889cc posted by Fred, and the 1914 Saint by ageka have been "harshly" cleaned. Not just submersion into some cleaning chemicals/or solution or with a "brillo" or "steel" type pad hand job. From the pictures posted by the sellers, an extreme mechanical "tool" was used on these coins. The perfectly aligned flow lines going in one direction gives away the fact that these poor coins were "whizzed". IMHO.  |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
7123 Posts |
I can see the reason for a net grade ,, it would be to help in the pricing of a cleaned coin, when I look at cleaned coins and I see a coin with MS details,I then have to in my own mind decide where my offer will fall , I usually determine that by the subtraction of 1,2 or 3 grade points ,,why not let the TPG do that? By having this info on the slab,those who look at the coin can either pay the net or above ! Ive tried to deal with dealers on coins that show hairlines, its not a fun thing in most cases, and usually results in a walk . Rick |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1203 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by national dealer
Grading SHOULD NOT change irregardless of whether it has been cleaned. The value (like any) is 100% dependent on the buyer. If you see a cleaned coin and still believe it to be worth the money of the assigned grade, then pay the price. If you deem it less in value, pay less.
Assigning a "NET" grade is wrong. Cleaning CANNOT change the numerical grade.
Here, Here!! This is exactly how I see the situation and agree in full. |
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Pillar of the Community
Australia
3831 Posts |
I strongly disagree. It all matters on how well the cleaning is done. You can have it from a light clean to a harsh clean done by a sandpaper. Seriously if one isn't careful with what he / she is cleaning, you can ruin major features.
However it's up to one to decide if they want to buy cleaned coins. I personally don't mind as long as the prices are right. I even don't mind buying jewellery damaged coins - forget cleaned coins. The only coins that I really don't want to buy is that the whole surface coin is polished and almost no details are left. :)
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
quote:
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Originally posted by national dealer
Grading SHOULD NOT change irregardless of whether it has been cleaned. The value (like any) is 100% dependent on the buyer. If you see a cleaned coin and still believe it to be worth the money of the assigned grade, then pay the price. If you deem it less in value, pay less.
Assigning a "NET" grade is wrong. Cleaning CANNOT change the numerical grade.
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I think if you brush an MS gold coin real hard with a steel brush used to take rust of steelworks you will get an XF or even VF real fast if you are a real dedicated steelbrusher
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Pillar of the Community
Belgium
2078 Posts |
quote:
Originally posted by gxseries
I strongly disagree. It all matters on how well the cleaning is done. You can have it from a light clean to a harsh clean done by a sandpaper. Seriously if one isn't careful with what he / she is cleaning, you can ruin major features.
However it's up to one to decide if they want to buy cleaned coins. I personally don't mind as long as the prices are right. I even don't mind buying jewellery damaged coins - forget cleaned coins. The only coins that I really don't want to buy is that the whole surface coin is polished and almost no details are left. :)
Hi GX I once saw an expert clean a coin with a camelbrush with hairs about 10 inches long only using the weight of the hairs to do the brushing No linear movement and no real circular movement was made Even under magnification the brushing could not be determined I think most of those brush jobs were done before dips or even copper polish existed |
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Replies: 55 / Views: 4,596 |
First Page
Posted 09/29/2005 9:13 pm
