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Pillar of the Community
United States
1913 Posts |
I'm wanting to buy a St. Gaudens double eagle. Oh how I would like to have one of the high relief versions, but it's not in my budget. For my budget, I can afford one in the MS66 range. I'm not very familiar with this series, so would you please share tips for buying the St. Gaudens double eagles? I know to buy the coin and not the slab, but I'm looking for tips beyond that. What sort of intangibles impact the desirability and value? Thanks, in advance.
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Moderator
 United States
23522 Posts |
The overwhelming majority of St Gaudens coins occupy the bullion niche in the market. Their value tends to track melt - albeit with a premium - even in higher grades. As a "for instance," PCGS and NGC between them have slabbed almost a half a million 1924-P's. Decent liquidity, because everyone wants them, but very little profit upside.
So, first, register at Heritage Auctions (ha.com) so you can have access to the huge database from which I just extracted that information. It's free and they won't ask for financial information unless you're buying. They have auctioned almost three thousand of these in MS66 alone, and almost 41,000 total. That's a big enough sample to trust conclusions about value in grade, which is what you're looking for.
I don't know your interest or tolerance level, but I personally in your shoes would be looking for ones that cost 66 money in MS64. The ones whose value relates to rarity, in keeping with the standard model of true numismatic value.
If you want the MS66 for its' beauty and "cleanliness," (I wouldn't blame you), don't spend more than $2000. You don't have to.
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
...I don't know your interest or tolerance level, but I personally in your shoes would be looking for ones that cost 66 money in MS64. The ones whose value relates to rarity, in keeping with the standard model of true numismatic value... That's good advice if you want to spend 66 money. If you've never bought a Saint then consider buying 2 common Saints such as a MS62 and a MS64. At upper MS grades like 65 & 66 luster is paramount and contact marks on the devices as well fully struck up details are critical. In the choice MS area of 62 to 64 it's a different ballgame. These coins are tough to grade from images because contact marks are often exaggerated and luster is often tough to read. If you want to post some images or links to coins you're considering we could give you more input. Above all else don't buy uncertified coins. Stick with PCGS, NGC, or ANACS encapsulated coins. Edited by BH1964
04/10/2015 6:32 pm
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1748 Posts |
Get a copy of Q David Bowers "Guide Book to Double Eagles" and read up first. When you feel ready, go to a few coin shows to look at what is available. Only consider Saints in a PCGS holder. ALL of my mint state DE's are in PCGS plastic. IMHO, for MS appearance, the best Saints are 1923-D, 1927 and 1928. Don't buy the first MS-66 you see. Compare a few then make the leap when you feel ready. Look for a nice orange-gold toning, but no red or black spots. A bleached yellow look usually means the coin has been dipped or chemically altered and stay away from those. Also look for the fewest contact marks as possible. A large amount of these coins came back to the U.S. from Swiss and French banks in the 1940's and 1950's, via a gentleman named Paul Wittlin. He also specialized in finding the CC DE's. The Swiss often used mechanical counters on the coins during inventories, thus many will have contact marks. The trick is to find one with as few marks as possible.
Hope this helps.
Edited by DoubleEagle20
04/10/2015 7:57 pm
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Pillar of the Community
 United States
1913 Posts |
Excellent information here guys. I really appreciate it. I'm already registered at Heritage and have been looking over the auction results. I going to a coin show this Sunday and then another next Friday, so I should be able to look at a few. I'll keep an eye out for the 1923-D, 1927 and 1928 to see if I can notice a difference too. I won't pull the trigger unless I'm pretty confident. Regarding not paying more than $2000, all of them on Heritage's website have sold for over $2000. Are you saying that dealers would be willing to take less because an auction fee isn't involved?
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1748 Posts |
Out of the three dates, you will probably prefer 1928. 1928's are usually a very well struck, lustrous coin. They also should be the cheapest in MS-66, since the mintage was nearly 9 million. Most did not survive the 1937 melt, but enough were exported to Europe to make them very common. They are a great Saint for a type set.
If MS-66 is too expensive, then consider a PCGS MS-65+, IMO. My 1928 is a cherry picked MS-65.
Edited by DoubleEagle20
04/11/2015 02:32 am
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
Regarding not paying more than $2000, all of them on Heritage's website have sold for over $2000. Are you saying that dealers would be willing to take less because an auction fee isn't involved? I believe Dave was thinking MS65 with the under $2000 price. Even the most common MS66 Saints from top TPG have not been under $2000 in the almost 10 years. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1913 Posts |
I went to the show today. It was a small one. The highest graded St. Gaudens was an MS-65. It was a nice looking coin, but not quite where I want one to be. The show next weekend is supposed to be much larger, so I'll give it another try.
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1748 Posts |
Shopping around.  Edited by DoubleEagle20
04/12/2015 6:02 pm
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I meant exactly what I said. I had no problems finding many MS66 Saints on Heritage going for $2100-2300, and that price includes 17% on the Buyer's Premium. The seller pockets $1800ish for a $2200ish sale. Dealers know this. You can have one for less than $2000. 1908 MS66 Wells Fargo coin, $2232.50 including Buyer Premium: http://coins.ha.com/itm/saint-gaude.../1216-7752.s |
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Bedrock of the Community
United States
10982 Posts |
Quote:
You can have one for less than $2000. No you can't. Show me one for sale anywhere for under $2000. You won't find one. Anywhere. Sorry. |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1748 Posts |
He probably won't like the relief on the 1908 No Mottos, though SuperDave. You have to find a certain subtype of 1908 No Motto to get slightly better obverse relief. It has a doubled star...up in the laurel leaves to the upper right. The design was constantly reworked to improve its relief and quality. From 1907-1916, they also did not basin the dies very well, therefore the fields have a rougher look. From 1920-1933, the dies were basined much more, giving the coins the look we are used to nowadays.
1928 is the best bet for a clean well struck MS-66, IMHO. 1928 is also the last date that is obtainable by normal, working folks. I wish I could afford a 1930-S, but I need to win a big lottery to afford that one.
Edited by DoubleEagle20
04/12/2015 8:38 pm
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
I'm kind of speechless here. You guys aren't rookies. You know how dealers and deals work. No, you don't see that price at retail. You see it when you wave cash at a dealer on Sunday at a show. They don't advertise that price.
17 of the last 50 MS66's sold at Heritage went for less than $2500, and the seller realized less than $2000 for most of them. Any of those would probably have settled for $2k cash in lieu of waiting weeks for Heritage. Cash flow. Think.
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
United States
1748 Posts |
There is something wrong about the date and the general appearance on that 1927. I have a suspicion it is counterfeit. Maybe it's bad pictures, but it's not like other 1927's I have seen.
Edited by DoubleEagle20
04/12/2015 8:54 pm
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Moderator
United States
23522 Posts |
Perhaps; I'm on my phone and didn't bother looking. That wasn't the point. If I can find something close in 5 minutes while also watching the Forum, imagine what a concerted effort would do for you.
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Replies: 16 / Views: 5,169 |
Posted 04/10/2015 6:31 pm
