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1922-D Peace Dollar - Please Help

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rum_n_cola's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2015  6:58 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add rum_n_cola to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I like to purchase coins as an investment. I like to purchase MS65 and higher grades. My question is, for an MS66 graded, NGC and PCGS, it shows a market price of $2600. I have seen them sell on ebay for as low as $800. Most current auctions are around $1800. Is there a reason why? Any insight into the dynamics of this would be helpful. Guess I have never encountered a coin that sells for significantly less book price. Thank you all in advance for your help.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/10/2015  7:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think you're looking at partly intelligent buyers carefully paying what the coin is worth ( Peace dollars tone ugly and people won't pay), and a little auction fever. Throw the book price out. It's ridiculous. Your notes on current auctions are a little more accurate. I see a fairly strong PCGS Premium for this one, as well. My usual stop, Heritage, bears all this out and prices are all over the map. They have 158 1922-D's in MS66 in the archive, by the way.

Populations of 1922-D drop off a cliff after 66. 67 is Top Pop. Some of those auction results are people believing the coin will upgrade (or at least get a Bean or a +) and at least triple in value if they get the grade, and any "additional" thing like the bean or the + will substantially inflate the price too.

For a 1922-D in 66, you want a blast-white, accurately-graded coin and figure $1500+ in PCGS plastic. If you're good enough with grading, you can possibly score a nice crossover candidate from NGC for hundreds less.
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rum_n_cola's Avatar
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 Posted 04/11/2015  12:14 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rum_n_cola to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks SsuperDdave! That was a very insightful post and I learned many things. I will try to find a blast white specimen. I have noticed most of the 1922-D have a very noticeable die-break. I am not sure if that affects value. I am starting to notice several Stack's West 57th Street Collection coins on the market. Again I am not sure if their lineage/hoards are worth more than others.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
United States
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 Posted 04/11/2015  12:29 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Both Peace dollars and Morgans frequently show die cracks. It's very difficult to strike crown-sized coins over a long run without running into that. Some few are turned off by it, but not many. If you're picky about maximizing everything, stay away from the heavily cracked ones, but that is only so you can also capture those very few naysayers in the buying audience when you liquidate.

Do not consider the 57th Street hoard as an added-value feature. Those who feel like paying more for such a provenance are the mistaken ones we're trying to educate here at CCF about what's really valuable in numismatics.
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rum_n_cola's Avatar
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 Posted 04/11/2015  10:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rum_n_cola to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you again for clearing that up. This gives me a better understanding on how to go about purchasing Peace dollars.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/11/2015  11:21 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm stretching my "normal" advice for your intent - you obviously like these coins but investment considerations play a larger role for you than some. The only real difference, though, is that I'm giving greater weight to liquidity here than I might otherwise.
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 Posted 04/12/2015  1:43 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It seems to me that Peace dollars, in general, are undervalued. Even if you had a collection in EF condition and you are willing to just keep them for ten years you may very well see some appreciation. If you have a Peace dollar in EF or AU condition you have almost the equivalent of a Siler Eagle except the 1921 coin will be 100 years old in just six years.

Same with the Saint-Gaudens Double Eagle. You can buy many for not much more than the $50 gold bullion coin. They seem undervalued to me because of their historic, artistic and cultural significance. Peace dollars and the Double Eagle are both beautiful coins.

Now if gold and silver prices fall sharply I bet the coins will hold up better than the bullion prices. This is just my opinion.
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Dar's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2015  5:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Dar to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
It seems to me that Peace dollars, in general, are undervalued


I feel this way too. I don't have but 3 but I am in Love with the model on the obv.

I think it is a Beautiful coin and do not understand a lot of the dislike for the type. Or that's the general concensus I keep reading.

That's just me though.

(Edited for clarification)
Edited by Dar
04/12/2015 5:51 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/12/2015  9:13 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Keep in mind, Peace dollars were minted in numbers which dwarfed Morgan production per year, and they weren't melted wholesale. The demand-supply equation holds pricing back.
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 Posted 04/13/2015  1:56 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Looking at the mintage of Peace dollars after 1925 there are a number whose mintage is less than a million and except for 26-S and 26-D less than 2 million. Where are these coins? I do see that the 1928 and 1934-S do go for a premium. They don't compare to the Morgans that is for sure. SuperDave, when were the Morgans melted down wholesale? Was this in the FDR administration? How accurate are the actual numbers of coins in existence as opposed to the original mintage? Collecting Morgans seems like a thing you start at age 20 and finish ten years after you retire. 8 out of the entire Peace mintages were 6 million or more. 1922 was the year they minted 51 million of the buggers and this is the coin you see most frequently being sold on ebay. If I had the cash I would just collect the Saint-Gaudens $20 gold piece. Compared to the mintage the coins from 1907 to 1925 most seem cheap. I am using the Red Book as a rough guide. I know that FDR had many of the these 1920's coins melted down, so no one really knows how many are in existence. I see that the 1913-S and 1914 have a very low mintage and yet the retail price isn't much more than other years. American Gold Eagles are selling for $1500 and Saint-Gaudens in AU condition are selling for $1625. So you can buy a piece of history for just a few bucks more than something cranked out just for goldbugs. You know many people kept a $20 gold piece on a watch fob or the top of a cane just so they would not die broke. The early jazz and blues singers mention the double eagle in many of their songs as it was a part of history in the early 20th century. As long as you had a $20 gold piece on you then you were not a vagrant even if that was all you had. That to me has a historical and cultural value that is priceless.
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MeadowviewCollector's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2015  2:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add MeadowviewCollector to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
when were the Morgans melted down wholesale?


The Pittman Act of 1918 when 270,232,722 were melted down and the bullion sold to Great Britain http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pittman_Act

The run up in the price of silver around 1979-1980 saw more silver dollars melted along with other silver coins.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/13/2015  3:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Half of all Morgans ever minted were melted under the Pittman Act, and the same law required that they make up that loss in far shorter time with what became Peace dollars. Having made up a substantial percentage of that by 1925 - check the mintages - they eased off somewhat because there was time left on the clock for them and pressure was easing.

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 Posted 04/14/2015  6:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You know precious metal mining stocks are as depressed as they were in 2009 at the height of the Great Recession. This may be influencing gold and silver coin prices. From 2009 these stocks went up and then crashed in the last couple of years (down 24% just in the last year). Inflation drives gold and silver prices and there is no inflation. However, inflation is not dead forever. I think this is a good time to buy silver and gold coins from an investment point of view. You want to buy a commodity when it is at the low point and we are lucky since we like coins for their own sake and would buy anyway. It is a bargain for us. Silver is selling for $16 on the spot market and I can buy a Silver Eagle for $20. I am just saying.

Very thoughtful and interesting information about the Pittman Act of 1918. I knew that FDR did his thing with gold, but I did not know about the Pittman Act. I do remember back in around 2003 or so silver bowls and beautiful plates and ornaments were selling just for their melt down price and the price was much cheaper then than now. I see that the mintage of Peace dollars really starts to drop off after 1925. I understand that many of the gold coins of the 1920's were melted down by FDR administration in the early 1930's. What was the rational for that action? I also see the price jump for the Double Eagles after 1925. That government policy could have such a profound affect on hobby coin collectors is pretty awful.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/14/2015  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Hunt Brothers attempted a market corner on silver in the late 1970's - darn near succeeded - which spiked silver prices hard by 1980. The crash was equally hard, and silver didn't start rising consistently again until about 2000. It peaked in 2011 at 1980 levels and has halved since to 2008 levels. This is a pretty good time to get into silver.

FDR took the country off the gold standard and removed gold from legal tender status.
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 Posted 04/14/2015  8:07 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add terry8835 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You know it is odd that in 2009 gold tended to move with the stock market. The gold stocks, at least, crashed in 2009. Now the stock market and gold shares have diverged. I think gold is down about 33% since it's top here a few years ago. That is one volatile market for those commodities. In just six years gold seems to have crashed, soared and then crashed again. The price is down to 2009 levels and who knows how far it will drop? I am a long time stock market investor and I see how weird gold and precious metals can behave. I never was a gold bug, but commodities and collectables move something like stocks. Oil is a commodity and it dropped 50% since August 2014. Since gold and silver coins do have intrinsic value besides their collectable value it is just an added bonus for coin collectors now. You can buy something as a collector and maybe get a boost from the low price of precious metals. Once we get some inflation the prices of all collectables should go up. Nobody knows when that will be regardless of what they claim.
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