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Need Opinions On Morgan VAMs Please

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Copper Penny Connection's Avatar
United States
415 Posts
 Posted 04/17/2015  8:43 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Copper Penny Connection to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hey,
I noticed a couple things that stood out on a couple Morgans. I am not that great at VAM identification. Any opinions on which VAM, rarity, desirability, and approximate value would be appreciated.

First one is an 1880-O with a micro o
Second is an 1891 with a doubled eye.






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Need-Opinions-On-Morgan-VAMs-Please

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Need-Opinions-On-Morgan-VAMs-Please

Need-Opinions-On-Morgan-VAMs-Please
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/17/2015  9:23 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I'm going to answer this with a stream-of-consciousness sharing of how I do it when I see one of these. It'll probably take a while.

OK, 1880-O. I know those have differing size mint marks, and I know VAMworld breaks them don by size. So, Small O, I know which list I'm looking at when I get there (I don't have the page open yet.

First, where's the date? 2-1/2 denticles from the neck vee. Normal Date.

Clashing? Nope. Obvious die cracks? Nope.

Mint mark location? Normal-to-high, centered, tilted right. Maybe a little thick on the left. Doubled? Dunno, maybe not but remember that. That might be enough right there, let's go look.

http://www.vamworld.com/1880-O+Reverses

Start at the first one, skim down for tilted MM's. Oh, crud. "MM Needed." A lot of those. Houston, we have a problem. Half of the mint marks aren't shown, I'll have to read listings instead of picking it out of the title copy, and my chances just dropped below 50% of getting it at all.

So, back through from the top, looking for features mentioned in the title copy to compare to your pics, and maybe I don't have to read individual listings.

Nope. Not really. So, here's the point at which it's just_plain_tedious. Some of the listings have plainly obvious wrong mint marks, I can eliminate them, but from here on in I'm just reading listings and comparing to your coin. Often, I load both Firefox and Chrome, the threaad open in one and VAMworld in the other, both halved to fit on my monitor. <3 2560x1440.

I do that for many, many of the coins posted here for attribution. It's not about brilliance, just hard slogging work. I've probably read every page on VAMworld more than once to respond to these posts, and I have a terrible memory. If I tell you I've tried and failed, that means I've read every single word posted on VAMworld about your coin, that day, specifically for your post. Multiply that by about two thousand, and that's what I do in this forum.

Now I'm going to go start reading.

I wrote this so you and everyone else reading will understand that I'm only doing the same thing you could be doing. I don't know much you don't - I have a clinically-poor memory. I don't retain this stuff. I have to do it anew every_single_time.

See you in a bit.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/17/2015  9:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
One other thing: The angled/rotated images do nothing but irritate an attributor. One flat, vertical obverse and reverse to get spatial relationships clear, and worry about the rest if someone asks for more detail. If they ask you why you did it that way, tell 'em I said so.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/17/2015  9:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Next thing: Have a look at the link I posted, and check out a couple of the doubled date VAMs to get an idea of what sort of optical resolution is required to see this stuff. Of the 5000 or so known VAMs, at least half of them cannot be attributed without images of that clarity and resolution.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/17/2015  10:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I'm officially stumped without microscopic shots of any potential date doubling.

This is the dirty little secret of VAMming. In the grand scheme of things, there isn't enough data in public to identify most of them.
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Copper Penny Connection's Avatar
United States
415 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  3:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Copper Penny Connection to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thank you SsuperDdave :) Do you prefer to stick to vamworld or are their other sites you use?
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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23522 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  6:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
VAMworld is it. There are no others. It's the central repository for public information regarding VAMs. Logan McKechnie's Vamsandmore.com has a large quantity of differing VAMs for sale, all attributed, and Heritage can be good for the ones which are sold attributed because of their huge images, but VAMworld is it.

Morgans are not like Bust Halves or Early Copper, which are essentially complete. New VAMs are designated every day, and there's no way we're even half way through the job. It's been ongoing since the early 1960's, and we can't even see the end of the tunnel yet. We're not sure there is an end.

A large number of the recorded VAMs plainly admit there are probably multiple die pairs exhibiting the same characteristic for which the VAM is identified.
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Cascade's Avatar
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7390 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  6:40 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Cascade to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The confusion is half the fun... and half the frustration!
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srs77's Avatar
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3235 Posts
 Posted 04/19/2015  3:21 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add srs77 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Oh and SsuperDdave, there are those of us incredibly grateful for the efforts you and others put in with regards to helping identify these. I know I dig a lot longer before posting a question as I've gotten way more comfortable with Vamworld. Actually, tedious yes, but a lot of fun trying to figure it out. Sort of like a puzzle. When you finally have the answer it's so gratifying..

thanks again for all you do and all your help..
Edited by srs77
04/19/2015 3:21 pm
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 04/19/2015  3:57 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're very welcome, but this isn't complete altruism on my part. None of you have learned more than I in the last decade of doing this. There's no choice but to learn when you have to teach others. It's glorious, and I'll do it for as long as someone's still here to ask questions. Above all else, this is a hobby of knowledge, and the ones who like it the best are the ones who enjoy learning.
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