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Proof Like Sets Vs MS Coins

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parkay's Avatar
Canada
287 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  3:01 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add parkay to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
With a very significant price difference between an MS65 circulation coin and an MS65 uncirculated coin. Can you see the difference easily between the different coins? For example a 1988 .25 in MS65 trends at $70.00 and in from UNC/PL sets the trends price is $2.00.
Is there a very big collector market for the PL type coins?
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Altaira's Avatar
Canada
2517 Posts
 Posted 04/18/2015  4:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Altaira to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PL coins are handled with more care inside the Mint. I'm not completely sure but I think they are handled one by one. They just let circulation strike coins fall into a bag so that they are bagmarked and harder to find in higher grades.
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 Posted 04/20/2015  09:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I think it's very interesting to contemplate the future market in coin values. Personally I think UNCUT PL sets from 1960 onward are a good investment and will increase in value and MS coins will decrease. This is assuming coin collecting does not go the way of the postage stamp. Reasons for that -
1. The vast majority of young people today are growing up with e-money and thus, their paradigm of coin collection in general is much different than older generations where visiting the local bank teller played a routine part of their existence and who literally had a pocket full of change every day of their life. Now the majority of us have a piece of plastic in our wallet. The difference between the origin of coinage - a bank roll which comes from the mint as opposed to a PL set which also came directly from the mint - is lessened.
2. The issue of cleaned, faked or counterfeit coins adds complexity to the aspect of acquiring more expensive MS coinage.
3. It takes far less effort to acquire a full collection or fill a gap of several years from an inherited collection with nice, shiny coins by acquiring and cutting up a PL set of 6 (or 7) coins for each year, as opposed to searching for the same 6 (or 7) separately.
4. The Canadian Mint has drastically reduced production of PL sets. Ever since 2011, the grade is also exactly the same as bank coin or rolls prior to circulation.
5. The adage of "buy low and sell high" would seem applicable to any type of investment. Clearly the opportunity for "buying low" is with PL coin or sets.

There will always be the high end buyer who chooses to collect MS coins, but I think for the average collector today, cost wise PL coins are a real bargain......which is not entirely a bad thing because it enables new collectors to acquire collections that are not cost prohibitive, thus sustaining the hobby. In turn, as in any limited commodity type investment, supply and demand will dictate future prices. I have no idea of the percentage of population who have a coin collection but assuming the percentage of us stays constant, population growth will increase the number of collectors in the future. That in turn will limit supply, eventually increasing prices of the PL sets that are still "out there", especially the sets that remain unopened and untouched.

...just my 2 cents....

EDIT: I'm referring to the coin collecting hobby in general, apart from future metal values. I've noticed a somewhat odd trend of many people today who collect silver dollars solely for their potential gain in terms of future silver melt values. The thought always crosses my mind "and what, we're going to melt away from Canadian history that entire era of monetary transactions?".
Edited by wildflowerAB
04/20/2015 09:37 am
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wireman09's Avatar
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 Posted 04/20/2015  11:39 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wireman09 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The reason for the big price difference between PL and MS coins is because of supply. PL coins are special issued coins for collectors and all of them are of high grade. While MS coins are circulated coins and finding them in high grade can be very difficult. It's easy to put together a nice set of PL coins as they all come high grade. That can't be said for MS coins. So because high grade MS coins are so hard to find the supply is low so therefore the price is high.
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ace_ftw's Avatar
Canada
1747 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  12:02 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add ace_ftw to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The thing is, once you ope up the PL set, they become "circulated coins, and then are MS
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Paulsz's Avatar
Canada
2187 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  12:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Paulsz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
The thing is, once you ope up the PL set, they become "circulated coins, and then are MS


I thought PL coins had polished dies and gave somewhat of a mirror field to the coin.
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TheForce's Avatar
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4867 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  1:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheForce to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Even is the sets are opened, they were still minted as PL coins so opening the set up changes nothing.
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 Posted 04/20/2015  2:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
TheForce, I'm curious as to what you mean by "they are still minted as PL coins". There seems to be a lot of confusion as to *what are PL sets*.

According to Charlton the Royal Canadian Mint issuance of "Proof-Like" sets actually ended way back in 1967, although I realize many of us still refer to the uncirculated sets packaged in phiofilm/envelopes as PL. The PL sets up until 1968 that were offered for sale to the general public were actually issued prior to the introduction of either Prestige Sets or Proof Sets. (Which began later, in 1971 and 1981, respectively).

From 1968 to the year 2010 the finish of Uncirculated (aka PL) Sets was standard BU - Brilliant Uncirculated (except for 1996 and 1997 which were Specimen) and the standard grade was MS-65, albeit this grade is differentiated by it being referred to as MS-65 NC (NonCirculated) as opposed to rolls or bank coinage that is qualified by MS-* C. Depending on the quality of each individual coin selected for each set, the grade may be higher or I suppose lower but I think (maybe?) it's safe to say the grade is generally MS-65 NC assuming a set was not otherwise damaged in some way. When did ICCS cease with a PL grading, I do not know.

But according to both Royal Canadian Mint releases and Charlton, beginning in 2011 the finish of Uncirculated Sets (or what is still being referred to as "PL" sets, packaged in phiofilm) was changed to Circulated (how's that for confusing people!). The standard grade issued is stated as MS-65 C leads me to believe that indeed there is no longer any difference between a similar grade MS coin originally removed from a roll or saved by a bank teller to that cut from from a Uncirculated Set purchased directly from a dealer or from the mint.

I'm interested in what your understanding may be, that is different.
Edited by wildflowerAB
04/20/2015 2:09 pm
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 Posted 04/20/2015  2:30 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add wildflowerAB to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To add further, my understanding is beginning in 1968 -
* coin graded MS-65 C - originally obtained from a new roll - exhibits traces of bag marks because that's how circulated coins are originally distributed, prior to mechanical rolling,
* coin graded MS-65 NC - originally obtained from an Uncirculated Set (aka PL) - no bag marks

Other than bag marks, the features and quality of the two MS-65 coins would essentially be the same (qualifier - graded by the same grading company).

Is this correct?

* And beginning in 2011, in that the finish of Uncirculated Sets is now stated as "MS-C" - Circulated - how does that explain the past variance between bag/no bag marks? The coinage for Uncirculated Sets is selected after bagging? (Pardon me, I have a curious mind.....)
Edited by wildflowerAB
04/20/2015 2:38 pm
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JimmyD's Avatar
Canada
21601 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  2:53 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wildflowerAB
FYI-
ICCS stopped using the PLXX designation on sets in 1976.
After that uncirculated sets had the designation of Numismatic Brilliant Uncirculated, thus the grade prefix would be MSXX with "Numismatic BU" in the comment section.
Business strikes still retained a MSXX grade.
Hope this doesn't add to the confusion.

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JimmyD's Avatar
Canada
21601 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  3:10 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
wildflowerAB
In regards to your second question.
Coins graded MS65C are regular Business Strikes that are mass produced with little care.
Coins graded MS65NC use the same dies but made with more care and slower striking speeds. These special struck coins are then sent to the Mints Numismatic Department to be packaged
and issued to collectors.
Edited by JimmyD
04/20/2015 4:19 pm
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TheForce's Avatar
United States
4867 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  3:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheForce to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I guess I am just accustomed to calling these sets proof-like sets because everywhere I buy them ( ebay), that's what they seem to be labeled as. I supposed it would be better to call them a mint set or an uncirculated set.
Edited by TheForce
04/20/2015 3:54 pm
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JimmyD's Avatar
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21601 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  4:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add JimmyD to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

TheForce
Your right in calling them Proof-Like up until 1980.
After that collector sets where issued in 3 different finishes, Proof, Specimen and Uncirculated.
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TheForce's Avatar
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4867 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  4:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TheForce to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I find the Specimen sets to be interesting. I like the specimen finish. But there is a twist with Specimen sets as they usually have a special loonie....which is cool but what about a regular loonie with the Specimen finish? Think there are special toonies in some of those sets as well. But more interestingly, for example the Specimen 2015 toonie doesn't have the security features so it's really an entirely different coin from its circulation counterpart.
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 Posted 04/20/2015  4:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add tripoli to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Don't get sucked down the RCM rabbit hole of giftware posing as coins with tangible value.
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kuh_85's Avatar
Canada
2366 Posts
 Posted 04/20/2015  5:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add kuh_85 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PL is the correct designation up to and including 1967. When the coins were being struck on silver. After that BU coins were most commonly used in the mint sets except 1996 & 1997 were Specimen instead. It took a few years for ICCS to change their labelling so you normally see BU coins from the 1968 - mid 70's still labelled as PL. Charlton uses BU in Vol 2 and MS NC in Vol 1 to further add to the confusion. Starting in 2011 the BU production process was completely discontinued and all sets from 2011 until now contain Circulation coins. All the other set (O Canada, Wedding, Birthday etc) switched to Circulation coins in 2006 though.

@parkay Also be aware that while in general PL/BU/NBU/MS NC coins are less valuable than the equivalent MS circulation coin that is NOT true for the first few years of production where the extremely low mintages make the PL coins the more valuable ones. For example, the 1954 (1st general release set) had a mintage of just 3,000 sets.

@TheForce. There are generally 2 different Specimen sets issued these days: One with a special loonie and one with a special toonie. So each has the other "regular" design coin in it.
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