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Let's Talk About...sharpening

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 Posted 04/18/2015  9:30 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
I am not a postprocessing guru. I use Nikon ViewNX2 and occasionally Adobe Lightroom to edit my images. Neither of these offer sophisticated sharpening tools. Images I've seen from some of the newer cameras show significantly better sharpness of small details than I tend to see in my own images. Nikon and Canon both boast of new sharpening algorithms, and I believe this is why we're seeing the big improvements rather than an improvement in sensor technology. So how do they do it? How can we get the same result from older cameras?
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dru's Avatar
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 Posted 04/18/2015  9:45 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dru to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
if you use lightroom does it not have the unsharp mask filter ?
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 Posted 04/18/2015  9:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The Number One reason I threw away Photoshop in favor of the Gimp is because its' Sharpening algorithms blow Photoshop away. 40% in the Gimp is 15% in Photoshop, and I've never had to use Unsharp Mask in the Gimp. With that said, I walked away from Photoshop ten years ago and things might have changed.

I know this is redundant (more for the audience), but you Sharpen at full image size, right?
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 Posted 04/18/2015  11:27 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I know this is redundant (more for the audience), but you Sharpen at full image size, right?


No, absolutely not. I leave the full size image completely untouched. I only do post-processing after any downsizing. Any sharpening on the full size image gets lost, or at least modified, upon downsizing. Plus no matter how sharp the image is, the downsizing algorithms (even if by integers) introduce some level of blur that needs compensation at the published size. I also don't do levels adjustments at full size. Sharpening affects levels so all needs to be adjusted just before publishing.
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 Posted 04/18/2015  11:52 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I leave the full size image completely untouched.


Well, that kind of goes without saying....

Downsized images have fewer pixels. Why would you want to act on fewer pixels with a process that moves/changes pixels? Give the program all the granularity you can. Resizing is always the very last step for me.

I save the original, a full-size completely processed image, and a downsized image for every shot I keep. You never know what size you're going to want to post the processed image down the road.

To give you an idea of my level of paranoia, I never save whatever the final image is on my screen. I exit the program with that image in place, and refuse to save it when it prompts. I don't remember the last time I used "Save" as opposed to "Save As" (now "Export As" in the Gimp because it defaults to .xcf) - 1980's maybe, when I was in the sign industry? Even my in-progress backups are Save As.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  12:36 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Seems we have very different PP philosophies!

I like to do final processing on exactly what I will be publishing. So if I publish fewer pixels, I want to be looking at fewer pixels. Why would I waste processing time processing pixels that I am about to throw away? If it were possible to view at the exact image size I will publish, while still technically working on the full size image, it would be more practical. But I mostly do processing in ViewNX2, and the only view options it has are "fit to screen", 50%, 100%, and 200%. My T2i downsizing is 25%, and XS is 33%. So working with the full size image I am immediately faced with not actually viewing the image at the resolution I will be publishing at. Even if the program did offer a viewing resolution option (does GIMP?) then I'd have to trust that the jpg downsizing algorithm would output the same image as the "live" downsizing algorithm that I would view the image with.

So my PP flow is:

Downsize and output jpg
Crop if needed
Sharpen
Adjust levels
Save
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 Posted 04/19/2015  07:11 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mgillette to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Yeah, you should definitely do your image processing on the full resolution image - you could crop first that is a different matter. Sharpening is a very fast process. You will see many fewer "artifacts" in your end if you process first then resize.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  08:31 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Why would I waste processing time processing pixels that I am about to throw away?


Why shoot over 2MP resolution, then? You have no need to if you're not going to leverage the far more subtle effects of having all those pixels worth of detail.

Seriously. Why burn the processing power and purchase expensive 24MP cameras if you're not using more than a tenth of their capability in your final product? It's unjustifiable.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  09:22 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
My first coin (and other) photos with a DSLR were taken in 2004, with a 6MP Canon 10D camera. Currently, I use an 18MP? Canon 550D/T2i,which is not the latest and greatest, of course. Once the photos are reduced and JPEG converted for uploading to Flickr or CCF, you can't see much difference between the images from the 10D or 550D.

Of course, for closeup and macro shooting (coins in particular), the newer camera has live view, and improved tethering support. It does video for YouTube, too. My next camera will presumably have 24MP or more, since that's what the new cameras seem to have. As long as the per-pixel read noise scales down with the pixel size and well capacity, and the number of stored electrons per square millimeter doesn't suffer, the more pixels the merrier. The main downside is larger raw files and TIFFs that take up more disk space. Fortunately, disks are getting bigger too.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  09:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Yeah, you should definitely do your image processing on the full resolution image - you could crop first that is a different matter. Sharpening is a very fast process. You will see many fewer "artifacts" in your end if you process first then resize.


Of course I have tried it both ways, many times, with many different workflows and parameters. I found that the very best outcome (with fewest artifacts) is to use the flow I described. It is also the simplest and results in fewest output files. There are indeed some instances where I publish full-size files or crops, but in these cases it is usually to show differences between lenses or cameras or techniques, and still no editing is done!

I suppose the question is "does a sharpened image downsize better?". This question has a lot of dimensions.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  10:00 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I suppose the question is "does a sharpened image downsize better?". This question has a lot of dimensions.


That's my assumption, but I don't have your ability to look at things naturally from an engineering standpoint. There's no denying the quality of your work, so rather than debate it with words here I'm just gonna have to see how I like your way.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  10:25 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add mgillette to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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I suppose the question is "does a sharpened image downsize better?". This question has a lot of dimensions.


Mathematically, and from a signal processing perspective, yes - with some dependency on the algorithms implemented of course. However, the image enhancements are performed on an image of higher resolution with more information. When decimating and re-sampling, information is lost - however, you are, typically, better off performing the enhancement with more information available.

As an image and video signal processing engineer who works on images in the ~1 GP realm...
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 Posted 04/19/2015  11:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Why shoot over 2MP resolution, then? You have no need to if you're not going to leverage the far more subtle effects of having all those pixels worth of detail.

Seriously. Why burn the processing power and purchase expensive 24MP cameras if you're not using more than a tenth of their capability in your final product? It's unjustifiable.


Most of the shots I publish are either 0.64MP (800x800) or 1.1MP (1296x864, which is T2i/4 or XS/3). The original full-size images are quite large and unpublishable in any practical sense, unless a large print is being made, which I rarely do. The downsizing process gives "artificial sharpening" since it uses detail from a group of pixels to create a single pixel during downsizing, yet that process is not perfect and requires some further help to look its best.

This artificial sharpening concept is actually very similar to what happens with diffraction. Although they are completely different processes, it is instructive to think of them from the same perspective of how they affect sharpness. Diffraction due to small apertures in effect blurs detail across adjacent pixels. You can think of a larger aperture as doing the opposite by refocusing the detail onto the individual pixels. An even larger aperture focuses the detail to sub-pixel regions. But below a certain threshold you don't get any more detail in the image because the pixels are larger than the detail available from the lens at the larger aperture.

This same thing happens with downsizing of an image. The pixels of a high-MP sensor are analogous to the sub-pixel detail you get from large apertures. By downsizing, you are effectively increasing the aperture size at the downsized resolution. 2x downsizing is like opening your aperture 2 stops. 4x is like opening 4 stops.

This sounds great, but if the image is reasonably sharp at the pixel level, how much does this artificial sharpening actually help? In general I can't tell the difference between downsizing 3x vs 4x, which is why I have been recommending the Rebel XS camera rather than a more modern, higher MP count camera like a TXi. Once you do at least a 2x downsize, there is seemingly no further benefit, assuming the original full-size image was not heavily diffraction-limited. If it was, then additional downsizing might further improve the sharpness.

A big reason for the improved sharpness on downsizing, beyond any diffraction reduction effect, is that the pixel-level sharpness on most sensors is not optimum. Pixels are not perfect, and the imperfections (due to demosaicing errors, AA filter blurring, etc) immediately limit 100% pixel-level sharpness to a certain level. Downsizing by at least 2x utilizes adjacent pixels to compose the final image and reduces/eliminates the sensor artifacts.

All this said, much of the work I've done in the last few years has been devoted to getting maximum sharpness and detail at the pixel level, which allows 100% crops to show well. You might remember when I first started posting on this forum that my stated goal was to be able to take a single shot of a Lincoln Cent such that I could dig down into and view variety details, surface condition, marks and such. I so far have not succeeded to my satisfaction with optics alone, as the sharpest lenses I own (the sharpest available!) are seemingly insufficient for this purpose.

YET I see images that show more detailed 100% pixel level images than I have achieved. The images from the D810 have this quality, and I expect those from the latest Canons to as well. Both companies tout their latest image engines as being able to extract sharper detail at pixel level. It was my intent for this post to see if there are any techniques out there that can be used on older cameras to do the same thing.

Ultimately though, even if a sharp pixel-level image is achievable through better sensors, better optics, better demosaicing, or better sharpening algorithms, I would still stick with my described workflow, though I will be doing some additional tests to see what level of pre-sharpening could help with the final downsized image.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  11:34 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add rmpsrpms to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Mathematically, and from a signal processing perspective, yes - with some dependency on the algorithms implemented of course. However, the image enhancements are performed on an image of higher resolution with more information. When decimating and re-sampling, information is lost - however, you are, typically, better off performing the enhancement with more information available.


Sorry, I can't buy this argument. Sharpening is a lossy process, so mathematically the act of sharpening reduces the level of information in the image. Because of this, downsizing before sharpening actually provides MORE information to the downsizing algorithm.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  12:03 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add pepactonius to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

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Sorry, I can't buy this argument. Sharpening is a lossy process, so mathematically the act of sharpening reduces the level of information in the image. Because of this, downsizing before sharpening actually provides MORE information to the downsizing algorithm


How about doing sharpening during the downsizing (and no sharpening before or after)? This would be the Photoshop "Bicubic Sharper (best for reduction)" method on the image size menu.
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 Posted 04/19/2015  12:06 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
OK, I'm in full-on Student Mode here. The corollary to being one of those infuriating people who is competent at everything they do - as I am - is that I can never be as good as one of you in any specific area of endeavor. I need you to get that good, and teach me.

I used to earn my living in the sign business as a human raster-vector conversion engine, taking 2D images and via software making them into something executable in line form on a CNC cutter. This was in the days before effective scanner software, the advent of which made my skills completely redundant. The core of my skill lay in being able to throw smooth curves with the fewest possible designated points - greater numbers of reference points merely complicated the work with no additional quality. But that was dependent upon the software's ability to extrapolate from the points I gave it to work from, and it was good enough that fewer points always threw smoother curves than more points. Many of the nationally-known corporate logos, and more than a couple of typefaces, did not exist in computer-cuttable form before my work for one of the major wholesalers to the sign industry.

But that only worked for vector format. When we progressed into printing on vinyl instead of cutting vinyl, the greatest amount of initial information always led to the best output, especially when upsizing which was pretty much every single case.

So as you might infer, much of what I know about this stuff is from the standpoint of increasing size, not decreasing it. A reasonable man will therefore doubt his conclusions when moving knowledge from one case into a different case, as here where we downsize everything.

I'm listening.
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