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Test For Consistent "Cameo" Reflectivity

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Scropper's Avatar
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702 Posts
 Posted 06/03/2015  8:37 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
So, I've been frustrated recently trying to understand the TPG's "Cameo" Designation.

Utlra or Deep Cameo is pretty easy, we're talking blast white devices from all angles. I've seen a number of coins from all of the TPGs that show a questionable lower limit for this, some coins that wouldn't rate cameo in other situations, but consistency with Ultra Cameo is better than with Cameo.

With Cameo, it's all over the place, it seems like. Could be changing standards, I don't know.

But I suggest a reflectivity test.

There is a reflectivity (newsprint) test for PL and DMPL (Morgans), so why can't there be a reflectivity test to bring Cameo into more consistent grading standards that are easier to interpret.

I've head all sorts of definitions.

Here's my suggested one. For Proof coins (could be classic, mods, if this is in the wrong place, by all means move the topic!)

No Cameo:
Reflective or non-reflective surface (hazed, et cetera)

Cameo:
Both sides:
Clearly reflective fields through 4" or greater
Non-discernable (color but no distinct shape) reflective devices (all devices) to 2" or less

(this is completely debatable!)
OR:
IF one side of coin is Ultra Cameo, the opposite side must have some cameo effect, Non-discernable (color but no distinct shape) reflective devices (all devices) to 4" or less

Deep Cameo / Ultra Cameo:
Both sides:
Clearly reflective fields through 6" or greater
Non-discernable (color but no distinct shape) reflective devices (all devices) to 4" or less

Let the debate begin! I'm open to ideas!

If there is already a test for cameo, I'd love to know about it! I've never seen nor heard of it. I actually asked Dave Hall about this and he kinda gave me the "I nunno". Thank you for your input!
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 06/04/2015  06:51 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Unfortunately, the term "Cameo" has nothing whatsoever to do with reflectivity. It's usually found in the presence of reflective surfaces, but they bear no influence on whether the coin is "Cameo" or not. It's all in the contrast of the devices.
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John1's Avatar
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56855 Posts
 Posted 06/04/2015  12:14 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
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Scropper's Avatar
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702 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2015  09:09 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Right, but the frosting in the devices can have reflectivity - or not.

Look at your cameo coins, you'll see reflection in the devices. Look at your Ultra Cameo coins, you will (should) not.

I'm trying to address this issue. Currently, it's a highly subjective "idea", as exhibited by this article. I'm trying to put some scientific measurement to it so that it is more consistent and easy to understand.
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Scropper's Avatar
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 Posted 06/05/2015  09:15 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Look, here. (Sorry if you're not a coinfacts subscriber)

Based on the article's description, please explain this PR68 example:
http://www.pcgscoinfacts.com/Coin/Detail/5996
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John1's Avatar
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56855 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2015  11:23 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add John1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Cameo and reflectivity are two different things.If I remember right there are 8 stages of Cameo. Rick Tamaska,I think that's how it's spelled has a few books on it. He is like the" Cameo Guy". He helped PCGS define Cameo on their slabs years ago.The stages have something to do with + and - ... -Cameo than Cameo than + Cameo etc. Try to find one of his books.
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Bizybackson's Avatar
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1817 Posts
 Posted 06/05/2015  1:28 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bizybackson to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The word everybody is aiming for but have not said is "contrast". Ultracameos are the maximum contrast between pristine frosted white devices and a deep mirror jet black field. This assumes you are viewing a proof coin under a single lamp in an otherwise darkened room. Most modern proofs are of good contrast between field and devices. The old silver proofs of the 1870-1900 era could yield some dramatic cameos and those white proofs define what an UC proof should look like.
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Scropper's Avatar
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702 Posts
 Posted 06/06/2015  11:20 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Holy mackerel. Okay, this is nuts.

What is contrast? Define it. Contrast TO ME is reflectivity in the fields and NON-refelectivity in the devices. That's what contrast is!

NOW, let's put a measurement on it. Like I did in my original post.

This really is NOT this difficult. Now, please refer back to the original post. Thank you.
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SsuperDdave's Avatar
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 Posted 06/06/2015  12:18 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add SsuperDdave to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
You're down a rabbit hole trying to digitally describe an analog concept. You can no more easily quantify "degree of cameo" than you can "beauty of toning."

And the depth of reflectivity of the fields has no more to do with the degree of cameo than it does your dog's breakfast, as long as those fields are pristine enough to give the frost on the devices something to contrast with.


Quote:
Let the debate begin! I'm open to ideas!


No, you're not.
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Scropper's Avatar
United States
702 Posts
 Posted 06/07/2015  2:47 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Scropper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Absolutely I am.

As I recall, it was your post that described the newstype reflectivity test for DMPL Morgans I often referred back to. Was really looking forward to your input. Considering I used something I learned from you to apply it to something I hadn't seen done, I thought it would be a good place to start.

And then you simply dismissed the entire post. Frustrating.

Okay, I get it. I give up. I'm trying to help the numismatic community come up with a definable consensus for something that confuses and frustrates MANY numismatists.

But if you want to blow it off, that's fine. I tried.

Numismatists, go on and be frustrated with this one!
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