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Stupid Grading Question Most Likely

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Valued Member

United States
136 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:18 pm Show Profile   Bookmark this topic Add dahoov2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Message Number of Subscribers
Hi all;

For Christmas I got the RedBook (asked for it like someone on the board suggested) and it's still foreign to me (a lot of it I don't understand yet). So I have a question concerning the gradings in there...

For example, when valuating a 1864 Indian Head cent and another I see G-4 is the lowest they grade. Is there anything lower? I mean one cent had a hole in it (someone had it as a necklace or something). I just wonder if there are such thing as Poor coins that aren't worth anything? No matter what, they'll be face value right? For instance, I have three Buffalo nickels, with dates worn off... that's gotta be worse than F-4 right because there's no date.

Pardon me for sounding ignorant. I am still learning. This hobby is not THAT easy. Also on my 1864 cent, the value for G-4 would be 12.00 but the L on it would zoom it up to 65.00. Alas, that section is worn on the cent; so that's why I wondered if that would be less than G-4

I see grading is a very specific science that I am not even close to getting at this point. I mean reading what it all means boggles my mind. Worn in one spot but crisp in another or worn in three spots (named specifically).... HARD
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:26 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dahoov2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
PS Also, the other question I forgot to ask is... there are some blank areas in the RedBook For example, I have a 1999s Silver Quarter. It came with something I ordered before. I was told it was taken from Proof and put into a sleeve (cardboard/celephane holder. It was only touched supposedly that one time. In the book though, it only gives you a value on the Proof (PF-65). I would imagine this is NOT proof so how does value get determined on that? Value on that is 45 dollars. So would value just be determined on silver weight? Gawd; I am so naive.
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Metalman's Avatar
United States
7123 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:31 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dahoov

check here for the whole grading scale

https://goccf.com/t/234#1088

to answer the other question ,PR-65 is a proof coin ,, and is a relitively middle grade for them .

to get values above PR-65 other resources are used,, completed auctions on Heritage auctions, teletrade auctions ,ebay auctions , and or other publication like grey sheet .

Just a reminder that the price guide in the RedBook is not entirely accurate and prices should be checked through the real world final values of previous sales of the coin .

Metalman
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Amazon99's Avatar
United States
2443 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:32 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Amazon99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The lowest is PO1 (Poor), FR2 (Fair), and AG3 (About good). For most coins they're not worth much in those grades unless they're extremely rare. A coin with a hole in it would be considered damaged and wouldn't bring much unless it's rare, and even if it is rare it will be worth significantly less than an undamaged one. Also the prices in the RedBook aren't exact but they should give you an idea on what a coin is worth. Sometimes the prices go for less than what's listed, sometimes more. Your best bet would be to look at online auction sites like teletrade, heritiage, ebay, etc to get an better idea of what goes for what. If you want to learn more about grading this book is pretty good: http://cgi.ebay.com/NUMISMATIC-ASSO...HB_W0QQitemZ220186633182QQihZ012QQcategoryZ530QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
They have pictures of coins in different conditions and writes ups on what is need for a specific grade.

Edit: Forgot to mention that there are no stupid questions, so don't be afraid to ask because that's how you learn.

Edit: Fixed a typo.
Edited by Amazon99
12/27/2007 8:09 pm
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:44 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dahoov2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Thanks guys. I didn't see anything (I leafed through only the stuff I have) below a G-4 rating so I wondered. I did read what the MS etc meant. I do get that the RedBook seems to be saying things are worth a lot more than I've been seeing them sell on say ebay (shudder at saying ebay). Most collectibles are like that as well; it's a no-brainer to realize that things are only as worth as much as someone is willing to pay.

I just wondered about grading on poor coins though; it doesn't make sense in a way to keep them (especially if the date is worn off). But it doesn't seem right to "spend" them. So there they sit!

One more question if I might; where would one go and look for values on say shipwreck coins, ancient coins and stuff like that?

PS For Metalman, I just heard about Heritage Auctions. I'll be checking out the other places you mentioned. Thanks!
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Metalman's Avatar
United States
7123 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Metalman to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I have never heard of F-2 please explain the criteria ,,F has always been an indication of a Fine grade ?
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  6:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dahoov2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Sorry; typo. G-4 not F-4 (but I can see a "fine" would fit in there!)
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USArmyParatrooper's Avatar
United States
1283 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  7:00 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USArmyParatrooper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
It's a 1-70 scale. Depending on the numeric grade it's given a designation. Not all numbers are used, for example, Extremely Fine (or Extra Fine some call it) is grades EF-40 and EF-45. There is no such thing as EF-41.
PO-1 = Poor
FR-2 = Fair
AG-3 = About Good
G-4, G-6 = Good
VG8, VG10 = Very Good
F-12, F-15 = Fine
VF-20, VF-25, VF-30, VF-35 = Very Fine
EF-40, EF-45 = Extremely Fine
AU-50, AU-53, AU-55, AU-58 = About Uncirculated

MS-60 through MS-70 (the "perfect" coin) = Mint State. In mint state there is a numeric designation for every number between 60 and 70. MS-60, MS-61, MS-62, etc.

The most common MS designation is probably MS-63, except for modern coins which are easily found in MS-65. Special minted coins, such as the new Liberty Walkers, were minted with greater care and packaged for collectors so they're easily found in MS-68 and MS-69. Certified and slabbed MS-70 examples go for a premium.

You will almost never, ever see a certified MS-70 business strike coin. And you definitely will never find a 70 vintage coin.

The one digit increments of mint state gives you ELEVEN! grades of an "uncirculated" coin. Many argue that grading is subjective (it is) and it blurs the lines of clear cut grading. One man's 64 could be another man's 65, and such is even the case with professional graders from the same company. What's worse, some coins cost hundreds in 64 and many thousands in 65.

The difference between an EF-40 and EF-45 is subtle, but usually easy to decipher. Such is not the case for MS coins that are one digit apart.

One might ask how there can be varying degrees of mint state? Not all coins are the same once they leave the mint. They will have nicks, tiny scratches, contact marks or other imperfections. This is caused by the minting process, packaging, storing and transport. Some may also be more weakly struck than others. Such subtle differences between truly uncirculated coins are another reason I think having eleven MS grades is absurd. But it is what it is.


Edited by USArmyParatrooper
12/27/2007 7:01 pm
Valued Member
United States
136 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  7:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add dahoov2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
WOW. Now that's great info. I can see where there'd be subtle differences. as they come off the lines they are put either in cases or rolls or bags right? Cases would probably be of higher grade? Rolls I guess they'd be clanking together at least once and for bags, well those clank a lot more and more room for scratching. I don't want to get so knowledgable I am here arguing with someone over what a MS-65 or MS-66 coin is! I'd like to have a nice legible collection of good condition (where you can read the dates and see almost all the design clearly). That's good enough for me. I don't see myself becoming an expert! But I do want to learn. I can't afford most of what the die hards probably can (this can be an expensive hobby looks like). But I'd at least like to be able to spot a potential nice find in case I find something at a yard sale or something.

One question then if grading is THAT hard core: How do you find a good grader then? I bet ten graders could give you 10 different grades?
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gussyboy1's Avatar
United States
174 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  7:42 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add gussyboy1 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I had asked a question a few days ago about holed coins--I have a lot of them . I still don't know what to do with them, but one of the group said that there are collectors that might collect holed coins. Thought it was interesting!
Gussyboy
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Amazon99's Avatar
United States
2443 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  8:08 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Amazon99 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
I have never heard of F-2 please explain the criteria ,,F has always been an indication of a Fine grade ?


Opps, meant to type FR2. Fixed it in the original post.
Edited by Amazon99
12/27/2007 8:09 pm
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Bilbo's Avatar
United States
812 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  8:46 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bilbo to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Dahoov,

Don't feel bad. I've been collecting for over 40 years and I'm still learning, too. Here's a few tidbits that address some of your questions:

In general, Good (G-4) is considered the lowest "collectible" grade. The exceptions are for extremely old coins (check RedBook's prices for Half Cents and large cents with dates in the 1790s) and extremely rare coins.

Buffalo nickels with no dates have little numismatic value. I do see ads in Coin World magazine offering to buy them for 17 cents each, so they do have some value.

Proof is a specific method of producing a coin. A Proof coin that has been touched (or even damaged or placed into circulation) is still a Proof coin. It might end up as a PR-60 (with a fingerprint or a scratch) or PR-50 (if circulated).

There is a market for damaged and dateless coins. These coins don't sell for much, but definitely over face value (assuming they are over 50 years old or so).

After years of practice, I feel reasonably competent grading circulated coins. Not so with uncirculated (MS60-70) coins; but my personal interest is in old circulated coins, so I have never spent the time required to get good at telling a MS-63 from a MS-64. Practice is the key.

RedBook is a fantastic reference book. It is a mediocre price guide, but does a decent job giving a ballpark figure.

All U. S. coins are legally worth face value, even if damaged.
Edited by Bilbo
12/27/2007 11:15 pm
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USArmyParatrooper's Avatar
United States
1283 Posts
 Posted 12/27/2007  9:09 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add USArmyParatrooper to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
quote:
(this can be an expensive hobby looks like)


It can be a very cheap and fun hobby. Even with many of the older, vintage coins which are the ones I like. You can get some really cool, and very affordable old common dates.

quote:
How do you find a good grader then? I bet ten graders could give you 10 different grades?


When I mentioned professional graders, I'm talking about companies that "certify" coins to be authentic and assign it a grade. Some of them won't authenticate a coin if it has a problem, such a corrosion, damage or if it has been cleaned or artificially toned. They put them in a permanent plastic holder and label them. Problem coins will be labeled "details", such as "VF-20 Details. Cleaned." A details coin is worth less on the market than a problem free one. There are also shady "certifiers" out there that are NOT recognized by the numismatic community. They're all over ebay and ebay is taking steps to stop people from being had. A good rule of thumb is ONLY trust the top four graders.

In order by reputation:

#1 PCGS (will NOT certify problem coins)
#2 NGC (will NOT certify problem coins)
#2 NCS (a division of NGC). This division is specifically FOR problem coins. So they will assign a grade "details" and annotate the problem(s).
#3 ANACS They will grade problem free coins and problem coins appropriately labeled.
#4 ICG (will NOT certify problem coins)

As a new collector, if you're going to spend a lot of money on a coin... IMO you should only by one certified by one of those four. And MAKE sure you consult the board, or a knowledgeable friend before making the purchase. I spent way too much on my first major purchase because I was an eager, new collector and I "had to have it".
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