Hogmouth Thaler Question - Coin Community Forum

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Author	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,798
Westwood Arms Pillar of the Community United States 684 Posts	Posted 06/13/2015 4:49 pm This coin arrived a couple weeks ago. 28.23g, 46mm, Kremnitz mint(Hungary), 1692. I really like this coin and have a couple questions. What is with the design on Leopold's shoulder that looks like the face of a troll or something. Is there a significance or was the engraver just having a good time? Also what is the origin of the Mary and baby Jesus design near the edge to the right of the bust? Report this Post to the Staff

austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 06/13/2015 11:08 pm The face is that of a lion, its part of the Habsburg heraldry. The Madonna and child is usually on Kremnitz coins of that era. You will see the Hungarian arms on the opposite side to the Madonna and child. Edited by austrokiwi 06/14/2015 12:23 am Report this Post to the Staff
Zohar444 Pillar of the Community United States 1429 Posts	Posted 07/20/2015 9:24 pm Very nice pickup. Report this Post to the Staff
Westwood Arms Pillar of the Community United States 684 Posts	Posted 07/21/2015 4:59 pm Thanks. My buddy also got a Hogmouth, same Davenport, date, and mint from the last Schulman auction. We compared the coins, the detail is absolutely different! Were the dies for these coins hand engraved? Looking closely at the lettering on just one coin there is enough difference between the same letters to make me think that a punch was not used even for the legends. I am curious about the minting process in Kremnitz. Is there a reference like Gilboy around for these coins? Report this Post to the Staff
wonghinghi Pillar of the Community Hong Kong 1270 Posts	Posted 07/22/2015 9:55 pm Quote: Were the dies for these coins hand engraved? Looking closely at the lettering on just one coin there is enough difference between the same letters to make me think that a punch was not used even for the legends. Westwood, your question is also my question. I suspect those hand-made old die pairs were very short-lived, there might be many "same" die pairs for one year/one monarch's coins. But I don't know, who really can answer. Report this Post to the Staff
austrokiwi Pillar of the Community 2087 Posts	Posted 07/26/2015 10:54 am Die life was very short. When Bolton introduced new die steel almost 100 years later die life was extended to 25000 - 50,000 coins per die. I have no idea what the strike rate was before that at a guess 10,000. that said I bleieve your coin would have been produced via a roller press( like a mangle) so that might have seen a slightly better die life span. The coins were hand engraved in mirror image from scratch From memory matrices (hubs) and punches were introduced a few decades later than your coin( but I could be wrong) Edited by austrokiwi 07/26/2015 11:21 am Report this Post to the Staff
Sap Moderator Australia 16830 Posts	Posted 07/26/2015 9:29 pm As I understand the process, the roller press had the advantages of speed and clarity of strike. It did, however, have several disadvantages - which is why the technology never really caught on once mechanized mint machinery became available. First, the same design had to be carved several times onto the big steel roller-die - and each carving was subtly different, meaning that even coins struck at exactly the same time could look significantly different to each other. The second drawback to a roller press is that, if the roller die cracked, the whole thing had to be thrown away and replaced, so overall die lifetime was much less than for a single-die device like a screw press. A third "drawback", if it can be considered that, is that the roller press tended to "elongate" the coins - after all, the device is not all that different to a scaled-up version of the machines that make souvenir "elongated pennies" - so the resultant coins are (a) slightly bent, and (b) not quite round. Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis Report this Post to the Staff
wonghinghi Pillar of the Community Hong Kong 1270 Posts	Posted 07/31/2015 9:37 pm Sap talked about roller press: Quote: First, the same design had to be carved several times onto the big steel roller-die - and each carving was subtly different, meaning that even coins struck at exactly the same time could look significantly different to each other. This point is especially impressive to me. Roller press had been invented in 16th Century and it was extensively used in mint of Hall in Tyrol for the production of coins of the Archduke Ferdinand as early as 1566. I have seen many thalers of this type in ebay and find there are many varieties of them. I think the most probable reason for these varieties came from the dies' variation on the roller press. Report this Post to the Staff
	Replies: 7 / Views: 1,798

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