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 Replies: 15 / Views: 1,710 |
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
First, I have to fess up and say that the coin I'm making this thread for really doesn't belong in this forum, it's a 1602 B Seville 4 real cob, so it's a couple of years late. Recently I've started branching out from my narrow focus on Australian sovereigns but I'm new to collecting generally and collecting these coins, as well as the ancient Greek silver, is a whole new learning curve. I'm noticing a bit of a theme though, that being the mechanations of trade and civilisation, the coins that were part of the development abdomen rise of society and paid for the commanding heights.
I've found a couple of good online registers and they all seem to mention S/B - with a number after it, which I assume is some sort of rating, which I further assume is for rarity or value or possibly the number of variations on that coin. I could be completely wrong of course but either way I'm after more information. So what does it mean? And how does it relate to my 1602 B Seville 4 real?
The seller of the coin went to great pains, in 3 languages, to point out that it was rare, but I just bought it because I find the period interesting and quite liked the looks of similar cobs I'd seen in person recently. Though that's how it always starts, next thing you know you're selling you're watch to get that one missing year from you're type set :).
Lastly,is there a go to book for coins of this era? Something I should definitely be reading if I'm going to be getting into Spanish coins from this period?
*** Moved by Staff to a more appropriate forum. ***
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Moderator
 United States
23731 Posts |
In ancient collecting SB usually indicates a reference from one of the Sear Books.
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New Member
 Australia
46 Posts |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Can you post a picture of your coin ?
As for books, depends how deep you want to go, and in which direction .
You have the Krause world catalog if you want something general, then there are numerous specialized spanish catalogs (my favourite is the Calico).
For a small one on cobs, Sedwick's practical book of cobs is very nice, I keep it along the Calico.
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
 I've only got the sellers image at the moment, living in Adelaide where I do options for buying these kind of numismatics are thin on the ground so walking the minefield of online auctions and stores is the only real practical option. The more I look into them though the more interested I become, the cobs have an odd charm about them. You'd almost call it rustic if they weren't the financial fuel for the rise of empires, the first global wars and the rise of truly international nercantilism. I've read about them being found in places like inner Mongolia and Bhutan to Australa and everywhere along the central and north African coasts. Plus, they have an odd charisma about them from an aesthetic point of view. Kind of like a regal looking 3 legged dog. |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Seems the identification may be correct, although I have a hard time knowing for sure the date is OK.
It's a nice coin indeed :)
It mentions SB, as that's what written on the coin ;)
S for Sevilla
B for the essayer - which helps dating the coin (along with the design)
The date should be visible over the cross side (1602, 1604 . not sure)
What are the numbers after S/B on your paper ?
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
You know sometimes an answer is so obvious that you can't see it until someone points it out...this isn't one of those times, this should just have been one of those things that made sense straight away. I think a week of reading soviet economic data and acronyms (they love acronyms), has numbed my brain to such things. Anyhow, thanks. Regarding the date it might be more obvious in person and if so I'll make sure to try and get a decent photo when I have it with the new macro gear. The seller seems pretty honest and pretty certain about the date, though on ebay that isn't necessarily saying anything. Is there a golden age of cobs for collectors? A period that most people focus on? Or is it a pretty wide field and people are mostly just looking for attractive strikes and rarer date/mint/assayer combinations? |
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
There are very scarce mints indeed, like colombian coins for example.
Then you have scarcer types, like transitional cobs from Potosi.
Then there are scarce date / mint combinations (for example some late mexican ones)
Then there are scarce essayers, like a CH monogram, or the first issues in Mexico or Potosi
Then there are . it's endless :)
People concentrate on areas they discover and like (a mint, an era, cobs in general, an essayer, a denomination, etc .), it's a quite wide field . there is no general common interest (such as key dates).
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
The one thing I'm struggling with at the moment is grading, obviously more detail is better, but it seems like there's a real connoisseur aspect to collecting and picking a coin that has a certain je ne sais quoi. As an Australian sovereign collector I'm used to not being able to rely on slabbed grades but this certainly takes it up a notch and doing it online with pictures...
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Slabs on such coins are usually worthless, the scheldon scale is of no use mostly . the only interesting thing is storage, and insurance IMHO (if you care about that - but for insurance you also get one from buying from a serious seller). I wonder why they don't use the scale used for ancient coins - which would be much more accurate . Anyway, for cobs, except for rarity, you can have those aspects which are important : * How much of the design is visible * Do you have all the key elements ? Denomination, essayer, king's name, mint mark . * For later cobs of the gride type, how much dates do you have (up to 3), how much essayers (3), mint mark (3) * How is the overall look (according to your taste - I sometime like cracked ones which others won't like) * Does it come from a wreck / does it have an interesting background ? (some like wrecks and even collect them by wreck origine - I actually don't care that much, I care about the overall aspect) If you really want to go there, I recommend checking out Sedwick's auctions (and his archive, you'll see most of the types, various origins, and pricings) He is specialized in wrecks and cob (which you'll also find in other auction house, but not in a such concentration) http://auction.sedwickcoins.com/auctionlist.aspx |
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
Thanks very very much for the great info. I'm a little interested in collecting some of the major types but mostly I'm interested in collecting good looking examples from the broad period I'm interested in. It always helps to have a good foundation for why the market is doing what it's doing and how other collectors are viewing things. Particularly if you're spending a fair bit on a small collection. I don't really think of it as an investment at all, but you still want to know what you are getting value wise and also buy smart and know if that once in a few years opportunity to buy a dream coin comes along that you might be able to cash some of them out.
Do you have any reference material with this 1602 4R S/B? Just wondering if it is particularly rare as the seller suggested? Sorry to ask you to do more when you've been so helpful already,of course it's ok to say no or take as long as you need for it to be convenient. :)
Edited by phrenzy
06/17/2015 09:07 am
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
I'm glad to share knowledge, that's how I learned in the first place ;) The coin above is not that scarce for a cob, particularly considering how much informations are missing from the overall design (no date, no denomination, no legend). It depends what you compare it with though . when I was a kid, a scarce coin was a 10€ one, now it's more like a 1000€ one :D Here is another great tool you can use to check value (you need a free account for that) and similar coins : http://www.acsearch.infoHere is a search for that one (I typed Felipe III as I think this one is from Felipe III - could be a late Felipe II but what I see don't match) http://www.acsearch.info/search.htm...r=1&company=In any case, if you start collecting those and don't do investment, go to the coins (or type or style or whichever criteria) you like, don't listen to peoples telling you that it's ultra scarce or ultra expensive. Just check pricings to be sure it's not over-priced. Else . you may end getting burned - some seller sell those for over 10 times their market price (pirate coins, supposedly ultra scarce, etc .) I also don't care much about price, but . it's a pleasure to get a nice deal once in a while (or I have to save for a couple of months because you are looking for something particular - and allas scarce and costly). You won't get nice deal from peoples telling you stories though - but because you know your coins and recognize them (while the seller don't know them well enough). |
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Valued Member
Norway
89 Posts |
Generally speaking, Seville cobs are not considered rare. Cobs from other mints such as Granada, Madrid or Segovia are a bit more difficult to come by and enjoy a higher prestige among collectors. But, as MathieuMa pointed out, there are many factors to be taken into account. Personally, I might prefer a Seville cob with a legible date and nice eye-appeal to more anonimous specimens from other mints. I don't worry too much about rarity. I often find incomplete cobs that invite to some serious detective work more interesting than those where everything is in plain sight.
Last not least: Standard Catalogue of World coins is a must.
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New Member
Australia
46 Posts |
I paid about $100 for this with postage so I don't feel terribly put off. As you say it's about the history and the look oh the coin for me, at that price I think I can live with it only being worth half that. I talked to the seller about the date, apparently the X602 date is somewhat visible in person, but I doubt there is anything super special about that date for Seville. He didn't claim it to be particularly valuable anyway, just rare. Very nice guy, a PhD in history in Spain, this isn't good primary area of interest so he's selling a few to fund other purchases.
After going to my first numismatic society meeting last night I have to say that I find the people who sell fakes that much more infuriating. The seller of this coin, you guys here and the guys last night have been so helpful and kind, it's terrible to see so many people taking advantage of a community that would otherwise be so trustworthy and helpful, both generally speaking and more specifically when it comes to sales. It would be easier to swallow the fraudulent aspect if there weren't so many highly honest and helpful people that made up the bulk of the community and who were the victims.
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Valued Member
Norway
89 Posts |
As long as people continue to collect coins, fakes will keep coming. But by reaching a certain level of experience, knowledge and the ability to do research you'll eventually be able to spot most of them. Certain numismatic fora and facebook groups with not only amateurs like myself but also experts of MathieuMa's calibre are also most useful in acquring and sharing knowledge.
Edited by diatonix
06/19/2015 12:00 pm
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Pillar of the Community
France
1591 Posts |
Hehe, I'm not an expert - just a passionate collector willing to learn and share knowledge :) I hate peoples selling fakes on purpose and making fakes . I hunt them :D The price you paid is OK, 4 reales are more scarce than other denominations. It's not worth half that, you could have found it for cheaper on some places, more expensive in others . You can join my facebook group dedicated to fake spanish / latin-american coins detection / education if you want -> https://www.facebook.com/groups/monedafalsa |
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Replies: 15 / Views: 1,710 |
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Posted 06/15/2015 03:35 am
