Coin Community Family of Web Sites Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors
300,000 items to help build your collection! Royal Estate Auctions - $1 Coin AuctionsSpecializing in Modern Numismatics Join Thousands of Coin, Bullion, & Money Collectors Vancouvers #1 Coin and Paper Money Dealer Coin, Banknote and Medal Collectors's Online Mall Royal Canadian Mint products, Canadian, Polish, American, and world coins and banknotes.








Username:
Password:
Save Password
Forgot your Password?


This page may contain links that result in small commissions to keep this free site up and running.

Welcome Guest! Registering and/or logging in will remove the anchor (bottom) ads. It's Free!

I'm Pretty Sure This Is Illegal. Counterfeit Bills On Ebay.

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.
Author Previous TopicReplies: 31 / Views: 15,802Next Topic
Page: of 3
Moderator
Learn More...
Sap's Avatar
Australia
16837 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2015  5:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Sap to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
These notes are, as the listings usually say, "bank training money". They use them in China to train and test their International Desk tellers. They use fake money because, if they used real money, a trainee might be tempted to swipe some of the money; they'd fail the test (and not get the job), but they'd score some cash.

The notes usually say "Training money - property of the bank - do not remove" or some such (in Chinese, of course). Given the amounts of these notes we're seeing on the market, it appears that someone isn't paying attention to that particular clause.

It's also entirely possible that counterfeiters are counterfeiting the training money, realising they can sell "fake notes" perfectly legally this way.
Don't say "infinitely" when you mean "very"; otherwise, you'll have no word left when you want to talk about something really infinite. - C. S. Lewis
Pillar of the Community
DoubleEagle20's Avatar
United States
1748 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2015  7:37 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add DoubleEagle20 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Betcha if we were to print yuan the Chinese government would get all huffy.

They need to crack down on this counterfeiting.
Pillar of the Community
denco7's Avatar
United States
2543 Posts
 Posted 07/26/2015  7:49 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add denco7 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The bills are defaced, so there is no way people are going to mistake it for a real twenty. Why are these any different than putting Bill Clinton's face on a hundred dollar bill?
Valued Member
Aahz's Avatar
United States
177 Posts
 Posted 07/28/2015  9:24 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Aahz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Bill Clinton's picture on a $100 is defacing real currency. The stuff they're selling are illegal reproductions, regardless of whether they're "defaced" or not.

(How do you "deface" counterfeit currency? Hmmm...)

The regulations regarding color reproductions of U.S. currency plainly state that they have to be smaller than 75% or larger than 125% of original size, AND THEY HAVE TO BE ONE-SIDED PRINTS, something a lot of people forget or are unaware of. The law makes no provision for actual-size, two-sided color reproductions, whether or not they're defaced or have "COPY" or "REPLICA" on them.

The laws regarding currency are so strict that movies and TV shows aren't even supposed to show genuine U.S. money. Either they use facsimiles that are different enough that they can't be mistaken, or they use foreign currency. For example, in "It's A Wonderful Life," Mexican currency is used for both the large notes and the small notes.

These bills for sale on ebay are very, very illegal.
Edited by Aahz
07/28/2015 9:25 pm
Valued Member
Aahz's Avatar
United States
177 Posts
 Posted 07/28/2015  9:51 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Aahz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Just noticed something else. The serial number and the Federal Reserve bank code don't match. The serial number begins "PF...", "F" being the Atlanta bank, but the bank code "B2" refers to the New York bank.

If these notes truly are for training bank tellers to work by feel, they don't need the appearance to be completely accurate, just close enough. The printer probably made this and other subtle changes in an attempt to keep them from being exact counterfeits. Doesn't make them any more legal, though...
Pillar of the Community
Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  2:54 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
To play devil's advocate here, the seller is Chinese. As such, he or she is bound by the laws of the PRC, not the US. The bills are probably illegal to own in the US, and as such, ebay should step in if the seller attempts to sell to a US-based customer.

Bottom line is, if the seller is not breaking Chinese law, ebay has no right nor power to remove the listing, unless it is in violation of ebay policy.
Valued Member
Aahz's Avatar
United States
177 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  4:29 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Aahz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Interesting point, Finn, but I'm not sure about that. See, the U.S. dollar is probably the single most-circulated currency outside the U.S. In fact, in some countries, the dollar is preferred over their own currency.

I believe international law allows for the prosecution of counterfeiting a nation's currency even if it is done outside that nation. After all, money from many nations changes hands and is exchanged countless times in every nation every day. For an individual (or a rogue nation such as North Korea) to introduce counterfeit currency into circulation OUTSIDE a country would be just as harmful to a nation's currency as if it had been printed and introduced INSIDE that country.
Pillar of the Community
Bacchus2's Avatar
United Kingdom
2885 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  5:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Bacchus2 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply

Quote:
I believe international law allows for the prosecution of counterfeiting a nation's currency even if it is done outside that nation


Is China a signatory to that? Can you provide a link to that international law please?

Thanks

Valued Member
Aahz's Avatar
United States
177 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  5:48 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Aahz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
The U.S, China, and 78 other countries are signatories to the International Convention for the Suppression of Counterfeiting Currency, originally created in 1929.

INTERPOL works to combat international counterfeiting, in conjunction with the U.S. Secret Service, Europol, the Federal Reserve, the European Central Bank, and other entities.

But if you think about it for a bit, if China turned a blind eye to the counterfeiting of U.S. dollars (or Euros for that matter), then they would not have much of an argument if the U.S. or European countries turned a collective blind eye to the counterfeiting of Chinese yuans. So China (theoretically) has a vested interest in assisting the international community in stopping the counterfeiting of U.S. currency.



... theoretically ...
Pillar of the Community
TypeCoin971793's Avatar
United States
6370 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  7:04 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add TypeCoin971793 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But then you have to semantically define counterfeit. If one was producing these bills (which are noticably defaced) with an intent other than to deceive, then are they counterfeits? Do they have to be exact replicas, or does there have to be an intent to deceive for an item to be considered counterfeit.
Valued Member
Aahz's Avatar
United States
177 Posts
 Posted 07/29/2015  8:55 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Aahz to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
Intent is part of it. If the person or entity who produced those "training notes" intended for them to be used solely for training purposes - and can prove it - that would get them past the "intent to defraud" portion of the law.

However, an attorney specializing in counterfeit law gives a really useful definition of a counterfeit: "In order for a bogus bill to be counterfeit, it must be similar enough to the authentic bill so as to confuse an ordinary, unsuspecting person." If someone makes counterfeit "training notes" of sufficient quality that they might "confuse an ordinary, unsuspecting person," then they had better exercise strict control over them so that they do not get released into the public's hands.

The notes on ebay have hashed lines (cancellation marks?) over one corner of both the obverse and the reverse. They also have the Chinese characters in supposedly irremovable ink saying something like "training notes - do not take" or whatever. But is that enough to prevent someone who cannot read Chinese and who is totally unaware of the existence of "training notes" to accept one of these things as though it was a genuine bill? After all, genuine U.S. money often has writing, printing, markings, and even stamps on them, and yet they're still genuine and still acceptable as payment.

Where do you draw the line? The printer seems to have taken care so as to ensure that the notes are not perceived as genuine. They were also apparently not intended for use outside of China (or a Chinese-speaking country), or the "training notes" text might have been printed in other languages. But whoever intended for them to be used as "training notes" within China obviously did not exercise the proper control, because a pretty large amount of them have made their way to ebay, where a considerable number of them have been sold. One single listing for packs of 100 $100 "training notes" has sold over 200 packs (that's 20,000 bills, folks, representing $2 million in counterfeit currency). At least one seller in the United States has apparently bought packs of several denominations and is selling the notes individually.

Obviously, the top is now off the bottle and the genie has escaped on this one. Now, it is just a matter of time before we see a segment on the news where someone has passed one of these at a Wal-mart or a Burger King.
Edited by Aahz
07/29/2015 8:59 pm
Pillar of the Community
Finn235's Avatar
United States
6130 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2015  07:30 am  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Finn235 to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I would probably have to see one of these bills in hand to decide whether or not they are intended to deceive. If these are perfect replicas, printed on linen and complete with watermarks and security strips, then they are being sold on ebay as counterfeits. If they are printed on cheap paper with no attempts to replicate any security features, I would say the bills are harmless.

Again, as for the defacement, it's down to Chinese law. The bills are intended for use in China and do say that they are NOT legal tender and are property of the bank. I could make a bunch of high-denomination yuan notes (or any numismatic collectible and not break US Law as long as I stamp them all with COPY. I might be able to fool a non-English speaker, and I might be committing a capital offence as far as the PRC is concerned--but I am not breaking the law of my homeland.
Rest in Peace
Learn More...
jgfindring's Avatar
United States
1380 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2015  2:38 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add jgfindring to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
But the point here should be that because they are actual size, nothing else matters. They are illegal to import into the US, or to have in your possesion once here. Any real size reproduction of US currency is illegal, defacement not withstanding.
Edited by jgfindring
07/30/2015 2:39 pm
Pillar of the Community
Broken-Coin's Avatar
United States
1812 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2015  3:01 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add Broken-Coin to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I sent photo to the BEP (below) and their comment is in one of the screen-savers posted..

After receiving their reply,I still don't know if they are legal to own as game currency.


I'm-Pretty-Sure-This-Is-Illegal.-Counterfeit-Bills-On-Ebay.

I'm-Pretty-Sure-This-Is-Illegal.-Counterfeit-Bills-On-Ebay.

I'm-Pretty-Sure-This-Is-Illegal.-Counterfeit-Bills-On-Ebay.

I'm-Pretty-Sure-This-Is-Illegal.-Counterfeit-Bills-On-Ebay.
Pillar of the Community
westernsky's Avatar
United States
7621 Posts
 Posted 07/30/2015  3:50 pm  Show Profile   Bookmark this reply Add westernsky to your friends list Get a Link to this Reply
I doubt if the BEP has the resources to deal with this international "problem".

In all actuality, this falls under the Secret Service, FBI and DHS umbrellas and they usually are looking for bigger fish to fry.

When they eventually realize it is a problem that's costing a lot of money they'll get around to looking in to it. The wheels of justice seem to move very slowly.
  Previous TopicReplies: 31 / Views: 15,802Next Topic
Page: of 3

To participate in the forum you must log in or register.



    




Disclaimer: While a tremendous amount of effort goes into ensuring the accuracy of the information contained in this site, Coin Community assumes no liability for errors. Copyright 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Family- all rights reserved worldwide. Use of any images or content on this website without prior written permission of Coin Community or the original lender is strictly prohibited.
Contact Us  |  Advertise Here  |  Privacy Policy / Terms of Use

Coin Community Forum © 2005 - 2026 Coin Community Forums
It took 0.37 seconds to rattle this change. Forums