| Author |
 Replies: 30 / Views: 3,860 |
|
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
Overgrading (over-optimistic?) grading by the TPGs is something I often come across whilst browsing the type of coins that interest me. This one caught my eye this morning: (see also picture of the obverse at bottom of page) http://www.ebay.com/itm/1824-2-25c-...em5b10f67328 I happen to own a similar coin, 1824/2 Quarter, graded by ANACS VG8. See the difference:    I know this is nothing new. But sometimes it is not even funny. I have seen early copper so dramatically overgraded that you sometimes wonder if they are talking about a totally different coin. Edited by GERMANICVS
08/04/2015 08:55 am
|
|
|
|
Pillar of the Community
 United States
5828 Posts |
Is it over graded or is yours undergraded? Anyways, sometimes TPG's make mistakes. |
|
Pillar of the Community
 Germany
1849 Posts |
On this particular case I would say the PCGS coin is overgraded. That coin looks like a G4 maybe G6 to me (at best).
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
7375 Posts |
Yeah, I can't believe how much the saying, "buy the coin, not the holder," holds true. Sometimes I find myself not even noticing which TPG holder it's in, and I go right to the coin. |
|
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
You are absolutely right, edweather. The problem is with beginners to the hobby who do not possess this knowledge, and they have been told to buy only TPG graded coins. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1959 Posts |
 . What really gets my goat is the TPGs lack of consistency on the designation "cleaned". I have seen dozens of coins with straight grades that have clearly been cleaned in the last few days. I think some of the big time dealers make mass submissions and the TPG show leniency to them because of volume. One dealer in particular comes to mind. Many of their PCGS graded coins are questionable as far as straight grade is concerned. I would like to run an experiment and buy 10 coins that look cleaned from this dealer and bust them out for a resubmit. My hunch is that most would be body bagged. |
|
Rest in Peace
United States
17900 Posts |
It's easy to pick out a coin from any TPG holder and give it a yeah or nay as to grade, condition, cleaned, damaged, etc. But we have a lot of very knowledgeable old time collectors on this forum and it is often true that there is a great deal of "disagreement" when asked to render their opinion about a coins grade and/or condition (which are two different things, by the way). NGC and PCGS are right a heck of a lot more times than they are wrong, and if I were to put a percentage on it, it would be in the high 90's. ANACS is probably even better as far as percentages go and a heck of a lot better if you want a variety designation. ICG is a LOT better than given credit for. But the bottom line is that the objective evaluation of a coins grade or condition depends on so many variables BESIDES the coin itself. Experience with the type, the year, the year and mint, the lighting conditions, use of a loupe or not, and if we are trying to do all that with nothing more than a PHOTO or two. TPG's serve a purpose. Regardless of the person evaluating the coin, there will always be some differences of opinion. Picking out one or a few photos and saying, "AAAAHHH HAAA - they don't know what they are doing!" is just silly. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
Moxking-I kind of agree and disagree with you. I would personally say the TPG's correctly grade coins maybe 50% of the time, but I say that with reservations. I'm one of the oldtimers here, been at it seriously since 1968. In 1968 there wasn't even an almost/about uncirculated. Extremely fine went from EF40-59, then BU60 choiceBU and gem BU65+. I'm not sure when AU50-58 started but it's a bogus grade. When TPG's give a grade of AU50-55 it is a joke as the coin has probably circulated for years. The only grade I personally consider AU is a coin that has just a very small amount of friction. Almost hard to see without a glass. Something like an AU58+ CAC. I just won a large cent from the StacksBowers Twin Leaf Auction graded Unc. Details-Env Damage. I knew about the coin for sale and had seen it before. For the last 30+ years it has always been considered an AU50 by the EAC members and by Grellman, Bland, and the Twin Leaf person among many others. So I don't care what the TPG said I bought it with no reservations whatsoever.. The copper people basically brought forth the Sheldon system of grading which has now turned into something else. I have almost never seen a Large Cent graded correctly, I would estimate maybe 5% of the time. I agree with you that TPG's serve a purpose but what that is I'm not so sure. |
|
Pillar of the Community
Germany
1849 Posts |
To clarify my point: the TPGs certainly do serve a purpose (I sorely wish we had such a service in Germany!). The benefits of TPG should be obvious. They certainly are to me. However, I believe that I am seeing an increased incidence of blatant overgrading, sometimes to the point of severely reducing the value of this otherwise valuable service. Without going very far, and staying within the series that interest me, I found within a few seconds of looking (literally) this 1804 Quarter graded G4. It should be obvious to anyone this is not a G4, and I question if it even makes AG3 (look at the reverse). Consistency in grading is essential to maintaining credibility, in my opinion.   Edited by GERMANICVS
08/04/2015 8:02 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
Germanicvs-The purpose that I see for TPG's is authentication as they have the tools for that task, but for grading? hmmmm. I'm not sure that people like you or me need them for that. Dealers need them for sight unseen trading. And, I suppose newbies need them to learn to grade, but then again are the TPG's good examples of pro graders. I don't know for sure. I trust myself, and I learned to grade without the assistance of them. You state above that TPG's certainly serve a purpose and that the benefits should be obvious,-- I'm curious as to what you mean by that and expanded thoughts--. You have shown the people on this website some real nice coins and most of them have been raw. The above example just reinforces what I believe in that they should stick to authentication but beyond that for individual coin collectors, "buyer beware" as I know they can't grade a large cent if they tried or the AG minus coin above. Edited by 1893S
08/04/2015 8:54 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
513 Posts |
If Dealer X says a coin is VF-20 do you believe him/her? Well, you look at the coin. If TPG says a coin is VF-20, do you believe it? Well, you look at the coin. For those not familiar with a particular series/type, would you rather believe Dealer X or TPG? Would you *tend* to rely more on Dealer X or on TPG? In a vacuum*, who is more "trustworthy"? Anonymous** Dealer X or TPG? Are TPGs perfect? No. But maybe more so than anonymous Dealer X. TPGs serve a purpose. * Sometimes a vacuum is all we have. A broom just won't get the job done. ** yes, yes, yes, I believe one should get to "know" and trust some reliable dealers, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But that doesn't always happen for everybody immediately when one wants/needs it. |
|
Bedrock of the Community
United States
12057 Posts |
Member ANA - EAC - TNA - SSDC - CCT #890 "Most of the things worth doing in the world had been declared impossible before they were done." -- Louis D. Brandeis Edited by paralyse
08/04/2015 10:10 pm
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1554 Posts |
Very good article! I hope a lot of people on this forum read it. You absolutely need to learn how to determine a coins value and grade by yourself. TPG's are in it for the money. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
513 Posts |
Quote:
You absolutely need to learn how to determine a coin's value and grade by yourself. from a collector-only perspective, I completely agree. But I will have a hard time doing that for all types for all eras for all countries. And I cannot wait to master that before I buy a coin of that type/era/country. But that's *my* risk--how do I want to allocate that risk? Quote:
TPG's are in it for the money. from a collector-only perspective--so are dealers. And there ain't a thing wrong with that. |
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1959 Posts |
GERMANICVS, I've been looking for an 1804 quarter also and have seen that coin. Just an observation from my point of view: sure errors in grading will and do occur. Sure grading is subject to "opinion". With this in mind, I would think the ratio of under graded vs. over graded coins would be roughly 50/50. I personally don't find that to be the case. I find (I'll pull a number from my nether regions) maybe 80% overgraded and 20% undergraded. And I think that is generous. True "anomalies" wouldn't be so imbalanced IMO.
|
|
Pillar of the Community
United States
1584 Posts |
IMO the big three or 4 TPGs should do a much better job. It is very easy to find coins on ebay that appear over graded, cleaned, misattributed, etc. The overall percentage of over graded/problem slabbed coins might not be fairly represented on ebay. The reason we see so many over graded slabs on ebay might be sellers dumping their over graded or otherwise problem slabbed coins. Whichever the case, too many slabbed coins are not graded accurately. Of course TPGs are "in it for the money". If they want to maintain (or ever had) integrity and good reputation they need to do better. If it is true that big dealers with large submissions get a pass on accurate grading, (I'm not sure it is) this would of course be a 'big deal". Quote:The problem is with beginners to the hobby who do not possess this knowledge, and they have been told to buy only TPG graded coins. I agree 100% I crack out most of the slabbed coins I buy, for what it's worth. Edited by noD
08/05/2015 12:03 pm
|
| |
Replies: 30 / Views: 3,860 |
Posted 08/04/2015 09:22 am
